Interesting data on who gets paid what in the public service

I suspect we are very near the top if you look at how Irish people do when the enter the workforce. We need to be teaching pupils fluent European languages most Germans under 40 can speak English fluently .USA Foreign direct investment no longer see Ireland as there first location Because we speak English they can set up in most of Europe and Hire people who can speak fluent English along The languages the will be trading in .
 
Agree jjm2016

We need teachers in many foreign languages.

We need to start language training for business in primary school. Chinese might not be a bad start.


Marion
 
Bring in a Chinese specialist. It's highly unlikely the DES will have properly trained teachers.

Marion
 
Deiseblue I hear unions and others on about increasing Corporation tax and other taxes We are loosing our Competitiveness We could be in for a shock when we deliver the bowl of shamrock to the President He may have news for us.
 
Marion
You are on the Button .We need to be training lots of new teachers to teach Business languages urgently.Most native German business people under 40 insist on using English to conduct business in Ireland.
 
Jim2016

Being on the button and the DES recognising reality are very different.

The DES will be very slow to accept change. A number of reports will need to be written and accepted to recognise this.

Marion
 
Marion
It is the private sector who are sleep walking at present the have taken the eye off the ball.Look over on cut the dole forum we have lots of our own Donald hanging around if the were not over hear they would sprouting off over there.
 
Marion said:
Agree jjm2016

We need teachers in many foreign languages.

Is Irish one of them? Maybe not!

We need to start language training for business in primary school. Chinese might not be a bad start.


Marion
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That and the use of technology.
 
Marion said:
It might be helpful Purple if we had a clear understanding and clear definition of what you believe is a "World class education system". What does that even mean?
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That’s the question I am asking.

Other posters have brought up Finland and their ranking relative to ours. I have to rely on the experts who compile these lists and work on the assumption that they are based on data rather than an arbitrary opinion. I have been told many times, often by teachers, that we have a world class education system. As a developed country with a reasonably homogeneous population and a single spoken language I don’t see why being ranked 15th for maths and science is something to shout about. I don’t think not having a single University in the top 200 in the world makes us world class.

My only experience is in engineering trades where we are very far behind the UK and the mainland in how we train apprentices and in engineering where Irish mechanical engineers would rank, in my experience, as “kind of okay” but nothing special.


Marion said:
You clearly believe that teachers are capable of delivering this. Educate the AAM readership. I'm excited to know what I could be doing to achieve this.
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Why are you asking me? You are the teacher. Do you believe that we have a world class education system? If not, as someone with experience in the area, what would you do to improve things? Or is it okay to just being okay?


Marion said:
So what do you believe is wrong? What are we not doing right? Why do you believe we are not in the top 5 in The world. What do you think we as a country should be doing to achieve this?
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It’s not me who doesn’t believe we are in the top 5. It’s the OECD. Do you think they are wrong?

We have very high levels of inter-generational literacy problems with [broken link removed]. Those are the outcomes from our education system. I think we can do better. My feeling is that it’s not down to the quality of the teachers as most I encounter seem to be good at their job. I am surprised and disappointed that teachers can’t come up with any suggestions to improve things and seem to be happy with our educational outcomes and, more particularly, our educational structures. The only issue they seem to really be interested in, or at least the one that always takes precedent, is how much they get paid.


I never said it was laughable. I think it’s something to be proud of. I don’t necessarily think it makes someone a better teacher though. The older I get the less link I see between the educational level of people and their skills and competence. I suppose I’m an advocate of lifelong learning.


Marion said:
Anyhow, looking forward to your inspired thinking on your understanding of a world class education system.
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Sorry to disappoint. I was looking for suggestions from others, particularly those in the education sector, as to whether they think we can and should do better. Particularly in the context of the structure of our education system but it seems I’m not allowed to ask those questions and any questioning of our “world class” education system and those who work within it will be met with petty sarcasm.


I speak as someone who, in the early 1980’s went through primary school with undiagnosed dyslexia and dyspraxia and went to school every day full of fear, who was thrown to the ground and kicked repeatedly in the kidneys by my teacher so forcefully I urinated blood afterwards, who was so frightened of my teacher that I wet myself when I was 9 years old. That man ended up as a school principle. I can say without equivocation that despite the near death of a child, the deaths of close family members and a marriage break up nothing I have experienced since then was as bad as the two years in primary school when he was my teacher.

He was one of the “dedicated and professional” teachers. He was protected by his union and his fellow teachers. Until you and your fellow teachers actively move to remove people like him from your “profession” he is and will remain the bar at which you set your standards.


I see my two sons going through the education system now. Both have high IQ’s but some learning difficulties. Things seem to be much better now but they are still far from perfect. There is a defensive group think from teachers which brooks no criticism, a myopic view bourn of people who have spend their entire lives in schools as either pupils of teachers and have a siege mentality. In that you do yourselves and those in your care a disservice.


Andy836 said:
Doctors don't have 4 months off a year...
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They earn vastly more than teachers and, as a group, deliver worse outcomes than their counterparts in education. 70% of GP’s are women and yet the majority of GP hours are worked by male GP’s. That tells us that they are so over paid that they can work a short week and still earn a very good living. Consultants spent 14 years blocking very necessary reforms to their contracts despite the impact it had in patient care. I wouldn’t hold up doctors or indeed nurses as paragons of selfless virtue.


Why is it unacceptable to question the efficiency, the value for money that we get from out state employees? This seems to be particularly the case with so called front line staff. This is a republic; we are all meant to be equal with no group seen as inherently more virtuous than another. We used to view priests that way. Have we learned nothing? Doctors and teachers and lawyers and other “professionals” are no more or less virtuous than plumbers or farmers or truck drivers or bin men/women.
 
Finland also expect more than 167 days work out of their teachers. Our teachers will never go to a European style school year and as a result our teaching will always be worse.

Marion said:
Our teaching will always be worse than what?Marion
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Apologies for the confusing sentence, I meant "worse than European countries such as Finland". As it happens I believe the only OECD country with a comparable school year to us is Mexico.

So currently we're more Mexican that Finnish. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
ashambles said:
As it happens I believe the only OECD country with a comparable school year to us is Mexico.
So currently we're more Mexican that Finnish. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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I think Greece is similar but I'm open to correction.

If the length of the school year is not a problem in the context of educational outcome then leave it alone. My ex-sister in law is a vice principle in a primary school and she believes strongly that there should be a shorter school day and a longer school year.
 
I would go along with that. We have three children in primary school and by the time they get home, some days there isn't enough time to get through all their homework and extra curricular activities (music, drama, sport) - they go to bed exhausted and it's all a bit of a rush. I think shorter days but over an extended period would be beneficial to children (and parents!). As you say though Purple, it would be good to get the views of experts (teachers and those studying the area) but also, whilst I am a big supporter of teaching in general, it should be possible to question (and even criticise if warranted) certain things in the current setup without teachers closing ranks.
 
Marion
Our Present Minister for Education and skills Richard Bruton Previously served as Minister For Jobs Enterprise And Innovation ,I am very Disappointed With Him in Education I was hoping his Experience as Minister for Jobs Enterprise and Innovation would be used For the Good in His New Department,
He is beginning to look like the Minister for not Recognising reality,
 

The School year is not set by teachers , the school year is set by the Department of Education, School Management bodies , Unions representing teachers & parents organisations.

All those bodies have never to the best of my knowledge called for or deemed it necessary to change the school year either at primary or secondary level apart from standardising the school year in 2004 , nor have I seen any concerted efforts by either the media or more importantly parents & the National Parents Council to amend the school year .

It should also be noted that not all teachers work a minimum of 167 days , primary teachers work a minimum of 183 days .

Finally as an ex child myself I always looked forward to what appeared to be the infinite vista of the summer unrolling in front of me , I wouldn't like to deprive any child of one day of that .
 

If we want to improve our educational outcomes, something has to change. Just because "That's how we've always done it" doesn't mean it's OK or shouldn't be changed..
 
I have 2 children going through Primary school at the minute, It's a large and very good and competent school and until last year, we never had an issue. However last year, our eldest got a teacher who I can only describe as borderline incompetent at best. The impact it had on my eldest, who until then loved school and though teachers were the bees-knees was startling. She lost interest completely and got quite stressed. Despite us meeting with the teacher and the head-mistress the situation never improved. I know of at least a half a dozen parents who did likewise to no effect. Thankfully the teacher in question is now gone abroad for a couple of years and the eldest is back to normal and loving school again.

My point here is that most teachers are patient and caring and brilliant people. I couldn't do their jobs and when I look at the effort some of them make for out of hours activities, frankly some of them should be paid more. I honestly believe our best educators should be rewarded more but the caveat is that it should be a lot easier to sack the incompetent and dangerous ones.

As for the length of time off they get, I have a friend who is a teacher in a small country school. He will spend 2-3 weeks of the summer painting doors and fixing things there because there is no budget to pay someone else to do it. However I do believe that teachers should not force school to close during term time for "training days". they should be scheduled to occur during the school breaks as they are long enough to fit those things in.
 
In his previous role he had to deal mainly with private sector export orientated businesses. That means few if any unions. He now had to deal with them all the time. That means he has no chance of really doing anything constructive. I presume he's also looking for the top job after Enda's time so he can't upset the Brethren.
 
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