Interesting data on who gets paid what in the public service

[valery]

Does the OECD report compare basic salaries, or are allowances included?

 

[Firefly]

I have seen nothing to suggest that we cannot continue to borrow more than was intended even if the Government wishes to avoid that eventuality .

TheBigShort has agreed with me previously in this thread that employers should not borrow just to give people a pay rise. Do you think they should?

 

[ashambles]

we should behave more as the Fins do.

The Finnish school year is up to 190 days I believe? Which probably isn't even that long by European standards. How about we behave more like the Finns in that way, probably one of the most important ways?

The Irish school year is 167 days, minus a few days here and there for strikes, elections etc..

The single biggest flaw with the Irish system is that school year, compressing everything into fewer days means you've stressed teachers who've little time to prepare, stressed students overloaded with work. You've stressed timetables where schools need to recruit to fill for a few hours here and there as they simply can't timetable their existing teachers into the hours they'd need.

Our secondary school year is a disaster, and sadly will never be fixed.

 

[Deiseblue]

TheBigShort has agreed with me previously in this thread that employer should not borrow just to give people a pay rise. Do you think they should?

Do you think the VAT rate applicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5% now that that industry is flourishing again ?

Your comment was that the State "cannot borrow anymore " - that is incorrect.

The alternatives outlined in my post were in answer to your query as to how any pay rises would be funded however if the Government conclude that additional borrowings are required to head off an IR disaster then that is their call , I prefer my course of action.

 

[Firefly]

Do you think the VAT rate applicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5% now that that industry is flourishing again ?

Your comment was that the State "cannot borrow anymore " - that is incorrect.

The alternatives outlined in my post were in answer to your query as to how any pay rises would be funded however if the Government conclude that additional borrowings are required to head off an IR disaster then that is their call , I prefer my course of action.

OK, I didn't follow, I thought you were advocating that we just borrow for pay increases. Well, if the money does need to come from somewhere then that needs to be explored. The problem with "taking" the money from the tourist industry is that if wage increases are applied it is (as we know) extremely difficult to reduce them again if need be.

 

[Firefly]

If you look at the PISA scores and compare Finland and the UK you will see why we should be looking at what has worked in Finland. Finland is ranked 5th (Subjects tested: Reading, Maths and Science). The UK is ranked 26th. Ireland is between them in 14th place.

Finland is doing well alright, but why focus on a country coming fifth? Why not look at those even higher up such as Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan?

 

[jjm]

Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul .Hell bent on driving as many lower paid jobs out of the country as we can.Tourism brings new money into Ireland

 

[Purple]

I was going to ignore this thread but I had to add my comment after what I’d read. Punishing teachers by withholding pay because the children don’t do well in a test is like withdrawing children’s allowance from parents if the children don’t behave themselves in public. There is a lot more to a child’s education than exams.

It would be worth looking at what has happened to education in other countries and compare it with our own situation.

If you look at the PISA scores and compare Finland and the UK you will see why we should be looking at what has worked in Finland. Finland is ranked 5th (Subjects tested: Reading, Maths and Science). The UK is ranked 26th. Ireland is between them in 14th place.

There is a vast difference between how teachers in Finland and teachers in the UK are treated. First of all teachers in Finland are respected. From speaking to a lot of teachers from the UK they are not. Teachers in Finland are well paid. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are given autonomy. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are not held responsible for children’s performance. In fact Finland does not use standardised testing at all. Teachers in the UK assess the children at least 3 times a year (Writing, Reading & Maths). This testing is used to track the “progress” of the children. They are expected to make a certain amount of progress each term/year. This puts a huge amount of pressure on the children and the teachers. As well as that there is a de facto payments by results system in the UK and that clearly has done nothing but create more stress for teachers.

Unless we want to end up with a broken education system like they have the UK we should behave more as the Fins do. It is clear that the system in the UK is broken. Not alone have their results been poor there has been a huge exodus from teaching. However, Finland has no such problem.

One last comment I should add. Not everyone who does well in the Leaving Cert is cut out to be a teacher. Teachers need to be kind, compassionate, approachable, fair, diligent, curious, responsible, supportive, capable and fun. They have to be good at and interested in all the subjects taught on the primary curriculum. They have to be able to entertain, protect, inspire, cajole, punish, etc. Teachers are in loco parentis. I have never come across a teacher who does not take this role seriously. They consider the children in their class to be their responsibility, “their children” for the time that they are working with them. They will do whatever they can to help those children succeed. There are many reasons that there are adults who are functionally illiterate. I’ve worked with some in the past. Some said they had to leave school early to support their families. Others had learning difficulties which would have been addressed if there was a proper Learning Support system in place at the time. That has been rectified by the Department. At the time these people would have been in school there were either no supports or they were very limited. (Class sizes have not been reduced significantly. You could easily have a class of 30 or more. The support teachers are counted when the pupil teacher ratios are being discussed.)

I feel very strongly that we should stop blaming teachers for something that is beyond their control.

Oh and just in case anyone is under the impression that I am living in the lap of luxury I am not. I bought a modest house in a rough housing estate because that was all I could afford. I don’t go off on expensive foreign holidays. I don’t have a flash car. My salary is basically the same as it was 12 years ago. Come to think of it, I’m not sure what I’m doing here. I think I should look into getting a job in Finland!

Very good post.
Have you any opinions or insights on what the Finnish are doing right?
I want us to have a world class education system. I believe that the majority of teachers are capable of delivering a world class education. What are we doing wrong? Why are we not in the top 5 in the world and what would it take to get us there?

 

[Marion]

Great discussion.

It might be helpful Purple if we had a clear understanding and clear definition of what you believe is a "World class education system". What does that even mean?

You clearly believe that teachers are capable of delivering this. Educate the AAM readership. I'm excited to know what I could be doing to achieve this.

So what do you believe is wrong? What are we not doing right? Why do you believe we are not in the top 5 in The world. What do you think we as a country should be doing to achieve this?

Disappointed that my honours Higher Diploma in Education is "Laughable". I was really proud of it especially since I achieved it at a time when Honours meant the top 5% and not almost everybody in the class achieving an honours accolade. But hey, I'm over it now.

Anyhow, looking forward to your inspired thinking on your understanding of a world class education system.

Regards


Marion

 

[noproblem]

Too much snobbery and elitism by certain people here on the merits, or not, of Degree, Diploma, Doctorate, pass, honours, etc. There are standards one attains to enter the teaching profession, some people with the perceived lesser one's can often be fantastic teachers. Might be an idea to dampen some of the attitudes toward particular graduates.

 

[Marion]

Also, why the major interest in teachers only in this thread?

Doctors and judges seem to be missing from the table in the initial post.

Marion

 

[jjm]

Its all about doing your best with what you have .There are people on here who thought the were world class full of snobbery and elitism Until the market caught up with them.

 

[orka]

Disappointed that my honours Higher Diploma in Education is "Laughable". I was really proud of it especially since I achieved it at a time when Honours meant the top 5% and not almost everybody in the class achieving an honours accolade.

That's an interesting point. The scales were created when it was a special achievement to get an honours degree or a masters degree - and the allowances were to attract the best and brightest into teaching. As you say, honours is pretty standard now and a much higher percentage of students go on to do masters degrees so it's nearly a basic entry requirement. I'm not sure an allowance that pretty much all new entrants are eligible for is what the original intention was.

 

[Marion]

I guess times are constantly changing.

Finland expects all teachers to have a masters degree.

Teachers to get a job now in Ireland are expected to have a masters degree at second level (Basic degree won't get you in most doors unless you know somebody) and a PGDE (2 year diploma in education.))

In Ireland we give (gave) allowances for educational attainment, other countries give bonuses and overtime.

It's really very difficult to compare.

If a masters degree now is the equivalent of a basic degree then , I would have no difficulty in paying extra for that extra qualification. A masters will cost in the region of €10,000 plus a year's training.

I'm pretty sure my taxes are paying for worse!

As Protocol mentioned only one degree allowance is allowed together with one diploma allowance.

Any uptake on doctors, judges?

Marion

 

[Andy836]

Doctors don't have 4 months off a year...

 

[ashambles]

I guess times are constantly changing.

Finland expects all teachers to have a masters degree.
...

A masters will cost in the region of €10,000 plus a year's training.
I'm pretty sure my taxes are paying for worse!

Finland also expect more than 167 days work out of their teachers. Our teachers will never go to a European style school year and as a result our teaching will always be worse.

The masters where given is an annual allowance and pensionable, it could cost 200-300k over a career. No doubt we spend our taxes on worse - but this is pretty bad. I'd have zero problem with teachers being refunded the costs of any masters course.

If any company I worked offered 5k p.a. automatically for getting a masters we'd all have been off to pick up one of those new interesting sounding but mostly useless taught masters that our colleges are providing. I thought I heard they cost around 4k for a 2 year course typically - maybe it's 8k?

I assume there's some rules on the types of masters however, perhaps taught masters aren't suitable?

 

[Marion]

Our teaching will always be worse than what?


Marion

 

[jjm]

Deiseblue post no 44.Do you think the vat rate appicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5 % now that the industry is flourishing is helping to bring in more tax so we have more money to provide better public services along with bringing new wealth into Ireland.Talk about killing the golden goose.Any short term gain could finish going into a Black hole .

 

[Marion]

You are perfectly correct.

No they don't but they get lots of overtime and lots of time on presentations abroad.

I'm acquainted with many doctors. They work hard. As I do. I'd love paid overtime.

Totally envious.

Marion

 

[Deiseblue]

Deiseblue post no 44.Do you think the vat rate appicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5 % now that the industry is flourishing is helping to bring in more tax so we have more money to provide better public services along with bringing new wealth into Ireland.Talk about killing the golden goose.Any short term gain could finish going into a Black hole .

Absolutely, the 9% rate was introduced in 2011 to aid the tourist industry during challenging times and was always considered a stop gap measure and now that last year produced the best tourism figures surpassing all previous records it's time to revert to the still favourable 13.5% rate.