I have seen nothing to suggest that we cannot continue to borrow more than was intended even if the Government wishes to avoid that eventuality .
we should behave more as the Fins do.
TheBigShort has agreed with me previously in this thread that employer should not borrow just to give people a pay rise. Do you think they should?
Do you think the VAT rate applicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5% now that that industry is flourishing again ?
Your comment was that the State "cannot borrow anymore " - that is incorrect.
The alternatives outlined in my post were in answer to your query as to how any pay rises would be funded however if the Government conclude that additional borrowings are required to head off an IR disaster then that is their call , I prefer my course of action.
If you look at the PISA scores and compare Finland and the UK you will see why we should be looking at what has worked in Finland. Finland is ranked 5th (Subjects tested: Reading, Maths and Science). The UK is ranked 26th. Ireland is between them in 14th place.
Very good post.I was going to ignore this thread but I had to add my comment after what I’d read. Punishing teachers by withholding pay because the children don’t do well in a test is like withdrawing children’s allowance from parents if the children don’t behave themselves in public. There is a lot more to a child’s education than exams.
It would be worth looking at what has happened to education in other countries and compare it with our own situation.
If you look at the PISA scores and compare Finland and the UK you will see why we should be looking at what has worked in Finland. Finland is ranked 5th (Subjects tested: Reading, Maths and Science). The UK is ranked 26th. Ireland is between them in 14th place.
There is a vast difference between how teachers in Finland and teachers in the UK are treated. First of all teachers in Finland are respected. From speaking to a lot of teachers from the UK they are not. Teachers in Finland are well paid. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are given autonomy. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are not held responsible for children’s performance. In fact Finland does not use standardised testing at all. Teachers in the UK assess the children at least 3 times a year (Writing, Reading & Maths). This testing is used to track the “progress” of the children. They are expected to make a certain amount of progress each term/year. This puts a huge amount of pressure on the children and the teachers. As well as that there is a de facto payments by results system in the UK and that clearly has done nothing but create more stress for teachers.
Unless we want to end up with a broken education system like they have the UK we should behave more as the Fins do. It is clear that the system in the UK is broken. Not alone have their results been poor there has been a huge exodus from teaching. However, Finland has no such problem.
One last comment I should add. Not everyone who does well in the Leaving Cert is cut out to be a teacher. Teachers need to be kind, compassionate, approachable, fair, diligent, curious, responsible, supportive, capable and fun. They have to be good at and interested in all the subjects taught on the primary curriculum. They have to be able to entertain, protect, inspire, cajole, punish, etc. Teachers are in loco parentis. I have never come across a teacher who does not take this role seriously. They consider the children in their class to be their responsibility, “their children” for the time that they are working with them. They will do whatever they can to help those children succeed. There are many reasons that there are adults who are functionally illiterate. I’ve worked with some in the past. Some said they had to leave school early to support their families. Others had learning difficulties which would have been addressed if there was a proper Learning Support system in place at the time. That has been rectified by the Department. At the time these people would have been in school there were either no supports or they were very limited. (Class sizes have not been reduced significantly. You could easily have a class of 30 or more. The support teachers are counted when the pupil teacher ratios are being discussed.)
I feel very strongly that we should stop blaming teachers for something that is beyond their control.
Oh and just in case anyone is under the impression that I am living in the lap of luxury I am not. I bought a modest house in a rough housing estate because that was all I could afford. I don’t go off on expensive foreign holidays. I don’t have a flash car. My salary is basically the same as it was 12 years ago. Come to think of it, I’m not sure what I’m doing here. I think I should look into getting a job in Finland!
That's an interesting point. The scales were created when it was a special achievement to get an honours degree or a masters degree - and the allowances were to attract the best and brightest into teaching. As you say, honours is pretty standard now and a much higher percentage of students go on to do masters degrees so it's nearly a basic entry requirement. I'm not sure an allowance that pretty much all new entrants are eligible for is what the original intention was.Disappointed that my honours Higher Diploma in Education is "Laughable".I was really proud of it especially since I achieved it at a time when Honours meant the top 5% and not almost everybody in the class achieving an honours accolade.
Finland also expect more than 167 days work out of their teachers. Our teachers will never go to a European style school year and as a result our teaching will always be worse.I guess times are constantly changing.
Finland expects all teachers to have a masters degree.
...
A masters will cost in the region of €10,000 plus a year's training.
I'm pretty sure my taxes are paying for worse!
Deiseblue post no 44.Do you think the vat rate appicable to the tourism industry should revert to 13.5 % now that the industry is flourishing is helping to bring in more tax so we have more money to provide better public services along with bringing new wealth into Ireland.Talk about killing the golden goose.Any short term gain could finish going into a Black hole .
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