I understand your frustration Bronte but as with all things its a question of degree. I don't know all the ins and outs of that case. Obviously an income and expenditure account was prepared. Perhaps this family sacrificed other things that would normally be allowable in order to ensure that the 27k was available for school fees. 80k is not a lot of money for a family. 27k is a huge proportion to go on school fees. Perhaps this was their priority above all else.
Income of 80K debts of 17 million minimum, court makes no instalment order
- Thread starter Bronte
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The only allowable expenses should be basic living expenses.
Discretionery spending of > €2,000 per month is not basic, no matter how you want to look at it
Also €80K is a lot of money for any family (> €6,500 per month), especially one which doesn't pay its bills.
There are families in this country living on < €1,000 per month
Discretionery spending of > €2,000 per month is not basic, no matter how you want to look at it
Also €80K is a lot of money for any family (> €6,500 per month), especially one which doesn't pay its bills.
There are families in this country living on < €1,000 per month
I concur with this - the children should not be made to suffer for the sins of their parents - within limits.
I think a good education is something all children deserve and disrupting a level of schooling with established friendship and support circles is not something I would advocate.
Edication apart, there are savings to be made elsewhere in his lifestyle.
A family of three can survive - eating a balanced diet with good portions - on a weekly shop of €90.
The main weekly shop can be much lower, but I'm allowing for the odd treat, mid week bread and milk and a McDonald's once a month.
You buy the bargains offered and adjust your menu to suit.
Given the problems this man faces, he is lucky if his family are able to keep one car on the road - that doesn't mean a separate one for the nanny, the wife and all the kids - or that the car is a new one.
He doesn't get to keep the club memberships, the foreign holidays, the "wine with every meal" lifestyle and he starts getting shanks mare out of the stable or cycling occasionally.
Ironically this could be the making of him and will cement of strangle his marriage. If it is a good marriage, not founded on gold-digging or status but on a real relationship, it will survive this and the kids will be all the stronger for seeing their parents coping through this.
It may also extend - not shorten - his life as he stops the over-eating and daily drinking that so many of us identify with "high living" but which usually only results in gout or liver failure.
Finally it may prompt him to become an entrepreneur, since the only way he will clear his debts is through engaging in a profitable enterprise and becoming a business success.
This is not so far-fetched as you might think - there are a lot of medium and long term positive issues to consider when dealing with individuals like this.
I was working with a guy in the 'Nineties and as we were crossing Baggot Street in Dublin he pointed out a chap across the road.
"That guy used to be worth millions - hasn't a penny now. He's going to see a bank about a loan I'll bet."
"Why would they want to meet him?" I asked.
"Because if he made millions once he can do so again - its the nature of the beast, and he'll be successful again sooner or later and bring employment to a lot of people."
So don't write such people off - they have an ability to make money [as well as lose it] that often exceeds the ability of the Man on the 46A bus - they may in fact be the core of our resurgent economy.
ONQ.
A family needs around €1200-1500 to live in Dublin a month depending on circumstances - that's no frills living.
Few families on €24,000 a year would describe themselves as having discretionary income.
People should try it themselves before commenting.
ONQ.
The average industrial wage is €35,000 I believe.
The suggestion that more than twice this is "not a lot of money for a family" is difficult to understand.
I don't know what age the kids are, but over 18 they're adults.
Fees of €27,000 suggest three kids are going to Blackrock College or similar
The person in question could send them to Monkstown CBC for about half that figure.
This is the kind of decision-making reality that he and his kids are going to have to face, even with some good will being shown to the family.
That's always assuming these figures are credible in the first place.
I'd be asking to see the accounts before I'd make a judgement on a case like this.
The sensitivity of the person in question and the well being of his wife and family has to be balanced against the sensitivity of the electorate, who are being asked to carry the can for the excesses of - what I hope is - a minority.
ONQ.
I don't agree that his kids should suffer.
If they are in primary a decision needs to be made on the secondary transition.
Such decisions are made regularly - only a few of my peers came with me to my secondary school - and shouldn't promote crocodile tears.
If they are in secondary already they should be let complete their secondary education.
Children are the future - anyone who doesn't see that and treat them accordingly should question their own motivations.
There is a big difference between fiscal correctness and begrudgery.
Equally there is a big difference between treating the next generation appropriately and writing a bankrupt a blank cheque.
I would be very concerned that the school fees figure should be checked for accuracy - my other posts to this thread also refer.
I would be even more concerned the money allocated is monitored to ensure that it actually gets used for the children's education and not diverted into a golf club membership on the grounds that "Daddy needs to maintain his business contacts".
ONQ.
I think I'm living in some kind of parallel universe. Don't know what is more crazy. 80K being considered not a lot for a family to live on, or a person going to court with debts thinking that it's ok to privately educate their children while Irish taxes are being raised to pay back his debtors so his kids get private education, or a judge thinking this is all perfectly reasonable, maybe the judge doesn't know there are free schools in the Irish republic, or the view that kids being taken out of private education will suffer. If my view is begrudgegy than I'd rather be called a begruder than subscribe to the view that this scenario in any way shape or form is normal or right thinking. Truly truly corrupt is what it is. Whatever happened to people being ashamed of their debts and doing everything to repay them instead of proudly boasting of one's excess during the boom and continuing to live the high life and even complaining that one is actually not being paid enough. Suave and sophisticated and personable gets you a long way it seems.
G
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Well said Bronte, I can't believe what I am reading,
the sense of entitlement of this person to provide expensive education for his kids at the expense of the long suffereing tax payers is enough to make me feel ill. if I lost my job in the morning I would still be responsible for my kid's education and pay the bills out of a measly few hundred in social welfare every week and no body would give two damns if I had to take my kids out of private education either. Is this thread for real, please tell me it is a joke
If you had kids in secondary you might better realise the upheaval that a forced changing of schools would be to their education.
That is - as opposed to kids who get expelled from school for not working or for behaving badly.
Their education will suffer because of the sea change in friendships, networking, environment a whole slew of things.
It would suffer just as much if they were going from saw Blackrock to St. Columbas.
ONQ.
The comment wasn't aimed at you, but it is a rebuttal to the things you posted.
My point is that there are far too many well-off people who pontificate on what others should be able to live on, in their view.
Judging from some of the comments on AAM, these people have never had to want for anything a day in their lives and seem to think that others can live on fresh air.
Your €1,000 a month comment in a case in point - if you know a family living on that kind of money you can bet it isn't in Dublin,.
The cost of living, heating, transport went through the roof some considerable time agoand shows no sign of coming down.
The family you know presumably cycle everywhere, do they?
ONQ.
Bronte,
We see eye to eye on a lot of things, and in general I support your indignant position, but where there are kids involved this changes things IMO. Yes, you appear to be begrudging the kids their education. That having been said, I see where you are coming from. I'm saying that I can see why a Court might see its way to taking the cost of their education into consideration.
The rest of your comments ..."proudly boasting"..."Suave and sophisticated"... well, they really DO smack of begrudgery and are not worthy of a level headed poster like yourself. I'll put it down to your being so upset over this.
I also don't buy into this whole "ashamed of their debts" baggage you mentioned - what use will feeling guilty be?
Its bad enough to owe people money and not be able to pay them back without becoming suicidal through worry and shame!
Is them being "ashamed" something that will get them out of debt or is it something you think they should suffer to make you feel better somehow?
If you're going to start invoking morals into dealing with this mess - where do you stop? When we're all living in rags without even a shred of self-respect?
Because make no mistake that's the slippery slope you're on - which is why I tend to leave the law to the legal eagles
Personally I know several people in this guy's position, professionals who dabbled in property and failed to see the signs. The big cars are gone, the lifestyle is now non-existent. The one thing those I know seem to be focussed on is their kids education. I agree with you about everything else, but I would not begrudge them that.
I fleshed out my attitude to this in my other previous posts. I know of several kids who had to change schools. Earlier is better inter alia. Much harder to do without repercussions when they get older. And no, I would have no problem stopping the riding lessons and getting them to do part-time work to help pay for their education during the school year with some full time work during the holidays.
I worked full time both at home and abroad during my teens when I could get work to do just that. It teaches you self-reliance, independence, the value of money and it makes you appreciate others who have to work for a living all their lives in lower paid employment.
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Finally and for the record I don't buy into any of this guilt-ridden hair shirt cutback nonsense.
This whole scene suits someone's agenda and its being promoted by vested interests if you ask me.
No country has even saved or cut its way out of recession - prudent savings yes, swinging savings no.
We urgently need to develop an economic strategy that is less capital intensive and more labour intensive.
And find ourselves some banks who will lend!!!
ONQ.
Ong where is my begrudgery exactly? I do not begrudge anyone sending their kids to whatever they think the best schools cost. But one has to cut one's cloth to suit one's measure. If you owe Ireland inc than you shouldn't be sending your kids to private school.
Do you actually really think it's ok for a man to transfer his house/assets to his wife, claim poverty, whinge in court that he is not getting a salary from the state (ie you and me and I think he's looking for a salary of 200k) despite living rent free (and lord knows what else depending on what was tranferred to the spouse) on an income of 80K while spending apparently 120K leaving you paying off his 17 million apart from the other 200 million which is up in limbo and you and others cannot afford anymore to send your kids to private education but he can. That 27K should be used to pay down some of his debt and it does not matter one whit that it is nothing comparted to 17 million. It is another 27K that you and I don't have to pay. Meanwhile in another jurisdiction he is building up a property empire and it is perfectly legitimate for him to take the rents from those properties to pay them off and ultimately own them completely but not pay his debts. The whole thing is rotten and I'm not angry I'm livid. Certainly I do not consider that it's begrudgery but if you can point out the error of my ways please do.
There are people in Ireland who have had to pull their kids out of private education because they cannot afford it, and probably because they are the kind of people who pay their debts. I don't see anyone putting their hands in their pockets to pay for their kids education as you are suggesting we continue to do for this man.
My comments about a person being suave and sophisticated are based on my observations and on interviews he himself gave. Private education gives a great gloss but it's hard as nails. As I don't want to get AAM into trouble those are the only words I can write. In fact I've to report my own post for the mods to check.
Do you actually really think it's ok for a man to transfer his house/assets to his wife, claim poverty, whinge in court that he is not getting a salary from the state (ie you and me and I think he's looking for a salary of 200k) despite living rent free (and lord knows what else depending on what was tranferred to the spouse) on an income of 80K while spending apparently 120K leaving you paying off his 17 million apart from the other 200 million which is up in limbo and you and others cannot afford anymore to send your kids to private education but he can. That 27K should be used to pay down some of his debt and it does not matter one whit that it is nothing comparted to 17 million. It is another 27K that you and I don't have to pay. Meanwhile in another jurisdiction he is building up a property empire and it is perfectly legitimate for him to take the rents from those properties to pay them off and ultimately own them completely but not pay his debts. The whole thing is rotten and I'm not angry I'm livid. Certainly I do not consider that it's begrudgery but if you can point out the error of my ways please do.
There are people in Ireland who have had to pull their kids out of private education because they cannot afford it, and probably because they are the kind of people who pay their debts. I don't see anyone putting their hands in their pockets to pay for their kids education as you are suggesting we continue to do for this man.
My comments about a person being suave and sophisticated are based on my observations and on interviews he himself gave. Private education gives a great gloss but it's hard as nails. As I don't want to get AAM into trouble those are the only words I can write. In fact I've to report my own post for the mods to check.
Well said Bronte
On the contrary. It is people who scrape by with sacrifices who know what others can live on, not those who have everything.
The family in question don't live in Dublin AFAIK. They live in Wicklow.
No. They walk everywhere or use public transport where necessary. They can't afford bikes.
++++1 ! amazing this country..
+2.
Dont forget we're talking about 80k take home pay here, not 80k before taxes.
Commenting in general, not about this particular case - the private fees thing reminds me of something a friend told me about the 80s recession:
Friend of mine who was privately educated during the 80s recession told me years ago that a lot of wealthy risk takers invest in their children's education as a way of avoiding a drop in lifestyle if they gamble away everything. They send their kids to the best schools, pay for expensive grinds etc. and essentially buy their kids way into one of Ireland's well paid closed shop professions e.g. medicine, law etc. Ultimately, the kids will end up in lucrative very well paid jobs and are well able to fund their parents expensive lifestyles and keep them in comfort for the rest of their lives. This friend said that many of her former classmates parents got into difficulties in the '80s, but they didnt care because of the above. She said this included a number of former classmates who's parents were tax cheats -Ansbacher etc. Essentially, these people used taxpayers money to set their children up thus guaranteeing themselves and future generations of their families a wealthy comfortable life.
DoctorEvil
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I am not sure I understand this correctly.
This person earns 80k a year yet has expences of 120k a year.
Who is paying for the extra 40k??? Surely the bank that he owes 17m are hardly extending his credit as well???
This person earns 80k a year yet has expences of 120k a year.
Who is paying for the extra 40k??? Surely the bank that he owes 17m are hardly extending his credit as well???
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