Immigration policy

Immigration/Racism

This is going slightly off topic but...

> In Malaysia (a predominately muslim/asian culture) I was required to have a visa/work permit...fair enough. Later I met and married a Malaysian girl. I do not have the right to apply for Malaysian citizenship. Indeed, she actually loses her Malaysian nationality through marriage to a foreigner!

Are you sure that this is true? First of all while there may be no automatic right to citizenship or to apply for same on the grounds of marriage it seems that one could do so on the basis of naturalisation if applicable

www.lawyerment.com.my/lib...00-7.shtml

(Note the links at the bottom each article pointing to previous/next pages).

Secondly I don't see anything that says that a Malaysian person marring a non citizen loses their citizenship...

Oddly enough this link suggests that specific rules apply to a non Malaysian WOMAN marrying a male Malaysian citizen although not necessarily if the roles were reversed:

[broken link removed]

As far as I can see Malaysia does not allow dual citizenship and will revoke citizenship if a Malaysian citizen claims citizenship in another country. As far as I know this is not unusual and many countries don't allow dual citizenship.

> I love Malaysia, the people and the country, but it is an inherently RACIST country in its immigration policies

If you can point to authoritative information that backs up your claims about how Malaysian immigration and citizenship laws operate and how they you deem them to be racist then I'd be very interested. Thanks.
 
Immigration in Malaysia

"...no automatic right to citizenship or to apply for same on the grounds of marriage.."

Correct, and that is different from the Irish rules. A Malaysian marrying an Irish person can apply for and be granted Irish citizenship. That is inequitous to the Irish partner.

"..one could do so on the basis of naturalisation if applicable.."

Correct...but you need to be there for 10-12 years! In Ireland the figure is 3 years. And its one thing to be allowed apply, but another to be granted it. I know of white guys who've lived in Malaysia for 20 years, who are married to Malaysian women, who have applied for citizenship, and never heard another thing from the Immigration department, in spite of regular futile attempts to find out whats happening to their application. I never heard of any white man who has ever managed to get Malaysian citizenship (and I visit the country regularly). I'd love to know different.
All whites in Malaysia exist on temporary (3 month) visas, thats it.

I know many, many Indians and other Asians who have Malaysian citizenship through marriage, or naturalisation...and I can tell you it does not take them 10-12 years to get it.

"Secondly I don't see anything that says that a Malaysian person marring a non citizen loses their citizenship...Malaysia does not allow dual citizenship and will revoke citizenship if a Malaysian citizen claims citizenship in another country."

Correct. That is the situation that pertains to us. If she claims her Irish passport she loses her Malaysian one. Why should Malaysia not accept her dual citizenship if Ireland recognises it?

"Oddly enough this link suggests that specific rules apply to a non Malaysian WOMAN marrying a male Malaysian citizen..."

Correct. They discriminate also on grounds of Gender!
The Malaysian government attitude is...if you are a foreign woman who marries a Malaysian man...you are welcome. If you are a Malaysian women marrying a foreign man...get lost...go to his country, become a foreigner and don't come back! (Imagine her situation if she was to divorce me...she's forced to remain abroad alone!) This is a blatantly sexist policy, but then again that is considered normal in Islamic states.

Of course I can't give you links to their Asian Only policy...it isn't written down publicly. But it exists in the way they discourage applications for citizenship (12 years!) and in the manner which they handle applications (Asians preferred), and the way they discourage Malaysian women from marry foreigners by effectively expelling them from their country of birth and stripping their nationality from them.
 
Immigration in Malaysia

> Of course I can't give you links to their Asian Only policy

So your allegations of racism against the Malaysian system are based on subjective and anecdotal rather than objective and independently verifiable evidence? Fair enough but to me that seems to be quite a prejudicial and ignorant point of view regardless of your first hand experience with the country. So too, in the absence of evidence, is your lumping of all "Islamic" states into one category. In any case, whatever about Islam being the dominant religion in Malaysia, the country is not an Islamic state insofar as it is a constitutional monarchy with a judicial system based on English common law (i.e. not based on Sharia or Islamic law as might befit a country described as "Islamic").

[broken link removed]
 
Malaysia

My wife is Malaysian, but Chinese by ethnicity.
She will inform you that its not the rules that matter, but rather who you know.

In the late 70's there was near civil war in Malaysia because the Chinese minority (30%) were so much more succesful in business that the lazy Malays (60%) were effectively losing control of the economy. Their answer was a POGROM against the Christian/Buddhist non 'BumiPutra' Chinese.

Thanks to a few wise men the civil war was cut short, and a regime of positive discrimnination (in favour of the majority!) was introduced.

Since then, if you are Bumi (i.e. a Muslim) you have preferential mortgage rates, preferential housing prices, preferential business rules, land purchase restrictions on non Bumi nationals, University place quotas etc etc.

Those rules were meant to expire after 2000, but are still in place in place!

It is a discriminatory society, no excuses!
 
racism

anyone else think this guy matsallah sounds a lot like elcid?
 
Immigration

Hi Wise One.
Who is elcid? I've never hear of him.

Perhaps you should consider addressing those points instead of diverting the debate into personal attacks?

As an Irish person I'm really interested in hearing your response to those points.

I'm actually not interested in your personal attacks.

Lets hear it.
Why is Ireland more racist than asian Malaysia?
 
Truth

Some people hate truth.
Especially when it counters their own biased arguments.

Some facts:

Malaysian New Economic Plan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

By 1970, there was a clear division of labour in the Malaysian economy. This division created a huge underclass of bumiputras (indigenous Malaysians), who were left behind in the recent economic development. Because of this, the Malaysian government implemented their “New Economic Policy” in 1971, which had the goal of redistributing the wealth to increase the ownership of enterprise by Malays from the then 4% to 30% of the total capital.

One of the main tools was the transfer of up to 30% ownership in Chinese-controlled businesses to Malay investors for a preferential price.

Surprisingly, the Chinese accepted this redistribution of wealth, although it costed them tons of money. This, according to the Chinese, was not a large price to pay in a country where they were allowed to run businesses with freedom, civil rights and wealth they were deprived of in China. It also helped protect the Chinese-Malaysians against ethnic tensions.

The first goal was the reduce poverty irrespective of ethnicity.

The second goal was to be achieved through the restructuring of employment and ownership of share capital in the corporate sector in order to give the bumipatras a larger share of the nations wealth.
As a result of NEP, the wealth in the hands of the bumiputras went from 4% in 1970 to about 20% in 1997. Although this shift in the distribution of wealth was not as dramatic as they intended, it helped increase national confidence, and likely prevented some socioethnic tensions. Now, Malaysia does not exhibit the same disparity of wealth that divides Indonesia along racial lines and creates such racial tension.
Click to expand...

Bumiputra (Sanskrit, translated literally, it means "princes of the Earth") is an official definition widely used in Malaysia. In Malaysia, the bumiputra laws are a form of affirmative action meant to provide more opportunity for the majority ethnic Malay population versus the historical financial dominance of the Malaysian Chinese population.

It is generally considered that all Malays are bumiputra and that all bumiputras are Malay. This is technically incorrect, as there are cases of non-Malays declared as bumiputra, and similarly of Malays (who are not Muslim) who are not considered bumiputra.
pi](Religious discrimination!)[/i]

This confusion is compounded by the fact that different ministries of the government may have different definitions themselves.

What is not obscure is that legally-based preferential racial bias for bumiputra is built into the Malaysian constitution.

In practice, racial policies were a consistent, even fundamental basis for the long regime of Mahathir bin Mohamad, 1981 - 2003, as laid out in his own book The Malay Dilemma (1970).

The Malaysian Federal Constitution has clauses specifically addressing this area. For example, article 153 states that:

"the Yang di-Pertuan Agong (The King of Malaysia) shall exercise his functions... in such a manner as may be necessary to safeguard the special position of the Malays... to ensure the reservation... of such proportion... in the public service... and of scholarships... and other similar educational... privileges or special facilities given... by the Federal Government".
The Constitution defines Malays as being one who "professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, conforms to Malay custom".

Consequently, Orang Asli (the indigenous people of Peninsular Malaysia) are not considered for this "reservation of quotas".

Since 1970, bumiputras have enjoyed numerous legal and economic advantages in Malaysia, including admission to college, positions in government and ownership in business.

The legal and economic advantages were intended to reduce the economic dominance that was traditionally held by ethnic Chinese and Indians.

Some argue that the advantages afforded to bumiputras are said to border on outright racism.

For example, it is required that a certain percentage of stock in a publicly traded company must be owned by bumiputras, opening possible abuses by both Malays and non-Malays.

Bumiputras are also traditionally charged less for purchases of real estate property compared to those of other races in Malaysia.

However, others argue that the legal and economic advantages were necessary for Malaysia to reduce ethnic conflict and insure that economic opportunity in Malaysia was evenly distributed.
Click to expand...

Religious Demography
Malaysia country has a total area of approximately 127,000 square miles, and a population of just over 23 million. According to government census figures, in 2000 approximately 60.4 percent of the population were Muslim; 19.2 percent practiced Buddhism; 9.1 percent Christianity; 6.3 percent Hinduism; and 2.6 percent Confucianism, Taoism, and other traditional Chinese religions.

Non-Muslims are concentrated in East Malaysia, major urban centers, and other areas.
Click to expand...

Status of Religious Freedom

In September 2001, the then Prime Minister, Tun Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad declared that the country was an Islamic state (negara Islam). Government funds support an Islamic religious establishment (the Government also grants limited funds to non-Islamic religious communities), and it is official policy to "infuse Islamic values" into the administration of the country.

Adherence to Islam is considered intrinsic to Malay ethnic identity, and therefore Islamic religious laws bind ethnic Malays.

For Muslim children, religious education according to a government-approved curriculum is compulsory in public schools. There are no restrictions on home instruction.
Click to expand...


Restrictions on Religious Freedom

[b[Muslims who wish to convert from Islam face severe obstacles.[/b] For Muslims, particularly ethnic Malays, the right to leave the Islamic faith and adhere to another religion is a controversial question, and in practice it is very difficult for Muslims to change religions.

The legal process of conversion is unclear; in practice it is very difficult for Muslims to change their religion legally.

In 1999 the High Court ruled that secular courts have no jurisdiction to hear applications by Muslims to change religions. According to the ruling, the religious conversion of Muslims lies solely within the jurisdiction of Islamic courts.

In April 2001, a High Court judge rejected the application of a Malay woman who argued that she had converted to Christianity, and requested that the term "Islam" be removed from her identity card.

The judge ruled that an ethnic Malay is defined by the federal Constitution as "a person who professes the religion of Islam." The judge also reaffirmed the 1999 High Court ruling and stated that only an Islamic court has jurisdiction to rule on the woman’s supposed renunciation of Islam and conversion to Christianity. The ruling makes conversion of Muslims nearly impossible in practice.

The issue of Muslim apostasy is very sensitive.

In 1998 after a controversial incident of attempted conversion, the Government stated that apostates (i.e., Muslims who wish to leave or have left Islam for another religion) would not face government punishment so long as they did not defame Islam after their conversion.

In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a Shari’a law subjecting Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation" (under the Constitution, religion, including Shari’a law, is a state government matter).

Leaders of the opposition Islamic Party have stated that the penalty for apostasy should be death.

In June 2000, the Government announced that all Muslim civil servants must attend religious classes, but only Islamic classes are conducted. In addition, only teachers approved by the Government are employed.

Proselytizing of Muslims by members of other religions is prohibited strictly, although proselytizing of non-Muslims faces no obstacles.

The Government discourages--and in practical terms forbids--the circulation in peninsular Malaysia of Malay-language translations of the Bible and distribution of Christian tapes and printed materials in Malay.

The Government generally respects non-Muslims' right of worship; however, state governments carefully control the building of non-Muslim places of worship and the allocation of land for non-Muslim cemeteries.

Approvals for such permits sometimes are granted very slowly. After a violent conflict in Penang between Hindus and Muslims in March 1998, the Government announced a nationwide review of unlicensed Hindu temples and shrines.

In family and religious matters, all Muslims are subject to Shari'a law. According to some women's rights activists, women are subject to discriminatory interpretations of Shari'a law and inconsistent application of the law from state to state.

In February 2002, the pro-opposition Council of Ulamas submitted a memorandum to the Conference of Rulers urging action against six academics who it alleged had belittled the Prophet and humiliated Islam in their writings. The Council of Rulers referred the memorandum to the National Council on Islamic Religious Affairs.
Click to expand...
Abuses of Religious Freedom

In November 2000, the Shari’a High Court in the state of Kelantan, which is controlled by the Islamic opposition party, sentenced four persons to 3 years in prison for disregarding a lower court order to recant their alleged heretical beliefs and "return to the true teachings of Islam." The High Court rejected their argument that Shari’a law has no jurisdiction over them because they had ceased to be Muslims.

Due to the definition of a Malay as being one who professes to be Muslim(among other things), those Malays who do manage to convert to another religion are automatically discriminated against economically, due to the Bumiputra policy.

Source: US Dept. of State www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/i.../13899.htm
Click to expand...

All quotes from en.wikipedia.org
 
> Some people hate truth. Especially when it counters their own biased arguments.

Not at all. I merely asked you to post some objective evidence for your claims about the Malaysian immigration and naturalisation system which I don't think is unreasonable when extreme claims are made. The ones that you have posted are very interesting and I'm working my way through them now. However, while this is an interesting specific case of an immigration system allegedly being racist or ethnically biased it is only one example and doesn't necessarily prove anything in the context of the original question other than that an immigration CAN indeed be racially or ethnically biased. Other than that, so what? Are you saying that other countries should necessarily counter such systems by adopting a similar approach, if even only on a reciprocal basis?
 
> Why is Ireland more racist than asian Malaysia?

Who claimed that and on what basis?

I thought that this discussion was supposed to be about whether or not immigration systems were (or could be?) discriminatory (yes, implicitly as established earlier) or racially/ethnically biased (potentially). Other than that what is there to say on the matter?
 
As a moderator I just want to draw attention to the fact that this topic contains two examples of two ostensibly different users posting from the same IP address which suggests that two individuals are posting under different identities for reasons that are not immediately obvious. Note that this has also happened in the past with topics dealing with contentious subject matter usually necessitating their closure on the basis of abuse of the system.
 
Immigration

Dear Whoever...
The point I'm making is that other countries (including Asian ones) apply immigration/passport controls, not just to foreigners, but to their own nationals, which are demonstrably racist in their nature. Such countries need to be educated about the illegitimacy of these practices and the best way to do it is by applying similiar controls against their nationals entering this country. I say that as someone who has a Malaysian wife. She agrees because she feels its the only way to highlight the discrimination against her (ethnically Chinese) countrymen.

We should not be ashamed to use the same methods.

Mtual respect works best.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top