Immigrants to fill 400,000 Jobs

Piggy

But we have segmentation in Ireland as I have already pointed out. Has it led to anything bad or wrong?
Click to expand...

It is bad in itself. That should be obvious to any sane person. Or are you saying ghettoes are a good thing. It may not have caused race relations problems ...yet...just give it time.

Are you for real, asking for examples of the of racial ghettoisation in the US? Or is that just another Red Herring meant to keep the rest of us typing answers to your bullshit instead of dealing directly and honestly with the facts.

American Ghettoes:

Harlem, NY; [broken link removed]

South Central Los Angeles 1965; [broken link removed]

Los Angeles 1992;

Two Centuries of Race Riots in the USA

Ref: Encyclopedia: List of riots

April 2001 - Cincinnati wracked by black riots - White bystanders and businesses attacked

February 2001 - Fat Tuesday Black Mardi Gras Riots in Seattle - White killed by black mob

Saturday, January 22, 2000 New Jersey: 15-year-old admits guilt in race riot.
The incident was sparked Dec. 16 when a group of African-American students from the city's Eastside High School went to Rosa Parks, looking for Dominican students to attack. The two ethnic groups had clashed earlier in the day at Eastside.

April 11, 1993 inmate rebellion (race riot) broke out at the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility

Backround image from Hyungwon's L.A. Riot photos of the 1992 Los Angeles Riot

August 1991: Crown Heights black race riots

May 1980 - Miami Race Riot resulted in the loss of eighteen lives and property damages in excess of $50 million. It was the worst race riot up to that time in American history.

Two Whites Charged in 1969 Pennsylvania Black Race Riot Slaying Pennsylvania National Guradsmen and State Police maintained a tight vigil around York, Pa., early the night of July 22,1969 after the city was wracked by six days of sporadic sniper fire.
SPECIAL REPORT, 1969 RIOTS UPDATES - York Pennsylvania
York Riot Murders - 1969 - THE PEOPLE INVOLVED

1968 Miami Race Riots

The National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders (the Kerner Commission) reported
130 separate race riots in the summer of 1967 alone — now initiated by blacks

Chicago: 1966-1977: Riots

October 1967 a race riot at Cook County jail

On July 14, 1967, Newark, New Jersey

1966 Hough and Glenville Racial Riots It is customary to attribute the Hough riot to the fact that on Monday night July 18, 1966, a Hough bar owner refused to serve a black patron and the dispute set off the riot.

Cleveland 1966 Race Riots

The 1965 Watts Riots

July 18, 1964 - Race riot in Harlem, NY

Rochester, New York Race Riots 1964-1966

Race riot at the University of Mississippi in 1962

Sit-in demonstration held on February 15, 1960 in Chattanooga, led to a race riot

1946 race riot in Columbia, Tennessee (link fixed 4/26/2001)

World War II race riots: Mississippi, El Paso, Texas, Beaumont, Texas, Detroit

World War II: As blacks poured into industrial centers, north and south, racial antagonism intensified. Disorders first appeared on southern military posts, where white residents clashed with northern black soldiers, who did not proffer the customary subservience. But the most severe race riots occurred in the cities: Harlem; Philadelphia; Mobile, Alabama; El Paso and Port Arthur, Texas; Springfield, Massachusetts; Hubbard, Ohio. A two-day guerrilla war between blacks
and whites in Detroit during the summer of 1943 left twenty-five blacks and nine whites dead, seven hundred of both races injured, and $2 million property damage. The riot only ceased when six thousand troops occupied the city. Two weeks later, during the famous zoot- suit riots in Los Angeles, white servicemen terrorized the city's Mexican-American sections for four days as the city police, the Military Police, and the Shore Patrol all looked the other way. The only factor which kept violence against Japanese-Americans at such a low ebb was their forcible removal.

The 1943 Detroit race riots (pictures)

BEAUMONT RIOT OF 1943. On June 15 and 16, 1943, whites and blacks clashed in Beaumont, Texas, after workers at the Pennsylvania shipyard in Beaumont learned that a white woman had accused a black man of raping her

June 1943 - Zootsuit race riots in Los Angeles

Rosewood: Race Riot in Florida, 1923

The Tulsa Race Riot On the morning of May 30, 1921 - (link updated 9/18/02)

Scars Remain From 1920 Ocoee Florida Race Riot

Race Riot of 1919 in Washington DC

Chicago Historical Information 1919: Race Riots

Longview Texas Race Riot of 1919

Knoxville Race Riot of 1919

July 25th, 1918 Race riot in Chester Pennsylvania (3 blacks & 2 whites killed)

East St. Louis Race Riot of 1917

On August 23, 1917, a race riot erupted in Houston

The Springfield Race Riot of 1908

The Race Riot of 1906 in Atlanta

Evansville, Indiana's 1903 race riot
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Re: Piggy

Or are you saying ghettoes are a good thing. It may not have caused race relations problems ...yet...just give it time.
No...I'm not saying that ghettoes are a good thing at all. I'm trying to focus specifically on Ireland. What I'm saying is that multi-culturalism and lack of immigrant integration does not necessarily equate to ghettoism.

Are you for real, asking for examples of the of racial ghettoisation in the US? Or is that just another Red Herring meant to keep the rest of us typing answers to your bullshit instead of dealing directly and honestly with the facts.
I was looking for examples of immigrant ghettoism actually. Most black American ghettos consist of individuals who are as American as Apple Pie. They are not immigrants, nor were their parents. Perhaps comparing American racial problems with Irish ones isn't really a fair comparison, considering racial history in that country?
Do you know what half of those race riots were about? Would it be fair to put the LA riots after the Rodney King beating in there too as an example comparable to future Irish problems?

Maybe you could keep your comments civil in future if that's not too hard?

Perhaps you might, seeing as you've rejoined the debate, clarify or withdraw the specific comments you made about me which I've asked you about on numerous occasions?
 
Re: Piggy

You're like a broken record.
Does that add anything to the debate? I keep asking you and will continue to keep asking because you refuse to clarify that remark. I wouldn't have to continuously repeat myself were you willing to do this.

I see you've also chosen to ignore my points in relation to ghettoism in the US not being a realistic marker of future racial divides in Ireland.
 
Piggy

What I'm saying is that multi-culturalism and lack of immigrant integration does not necessarily equate to ghettoism.
Click to expand...

Piggy you're great at demanding backup references and schoolboy proofs of every comment by others, yet you come out with an unfounded piece of pure opinion like the above and expect us to take it as gospel.

Taking a leaf out of your own book then I'd like you to go away now and provide us with a few factual references proving (contrary to the documented examples in every western country that has experienced mass immigration) that ghettoisation and its associated problems of alienation, poverty and prejudice, do not automatically go hand in hand with unchecked immigration and failed multi-culturalism.

Go ahead...references please, we're waiting.
 
Re: Piggy

Taking a leaf out of your own book then I'd like you to go away now and provide us with a few factual references proving (contrary to the documented examples in every western country that has experienced mass immigration) that ghettoisation and its associated problems of alienation, poverty and prejudice, do not automatically go hand in hand with unchecked immigration and failed multi-culturalism.

I can nearly taste the venom in your post Brain.

We're not talking about "unchecked immigration". I never once mentioned having unchecked immigration. Where is the link between unchecked immigration and having a multi-cultural society? The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

You want factual references that immigration will not turn into ghettoism in Ireland.
What I've been saying all along is that multi-culturism does not necessarily relate to ghettoism. The key word is necessarily.
I don't like to answer a question with a question but in this case the question is in itself an answer. Where are the Immigrant ghettos in Ireland? Surely it's logical to provide evidence of them first rather than trying to prove that there are none.

I might add that I don't necessarily think that it's an impossibility that ghettos could or might exist in the future. We've become side-tracked somewhat. I merely think that 'integration' as a whole solution is not altogether realistic in solving racial divides and inherent racism in this country in my opinion.
 
P

Grass is not necessarily green. If I buy a lottery ticket I won't necessarily lose. Jumping out af a 10th floor window won't necessarily kill you.

Piggy if you ever manage to provide worthwhile evidence for any hypothesis at all please make it the last on my list at your ealiest convenience.
 
QED

It is becoming patently clear Piggy, you are a 'Contrarian' and an empty headed Sophist.

You'll endlessly argue the toss over semantics without ever getting a clear point across. You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts, and I've yet to see you produce a fact to back up your position. If you have a position...

I can't discern what the hell it is exactly.
 
Re: P

It is becoming patently clear Piggy, you are a 'Contrarian' and an empty headed Sophist

I won't bother stooping to childish name calling like you. Rather I'll deal with the point you were trying to make in-between the childish taunting.

You'll endlessly argue the toss over semantics without ever getting a clear point across. You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts, and I've yet to see you produce a fact to back up your position. If you have a position...

I can't discern what the hell it is exactly.

Can you not? That says more perhaps about your skills to understand the thrust of what I've been saying than anything else.

I don't argue endlessly over semantics. This sub-thread all began with this comment from Tizona...

Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation

I have pointed out in many posts here the problems I have with these comments and instaed of answering my reasonable questions Tizona has continually shyed away from the point. Then we have other posters saying...'you know what I mean'!!

I take quite a rounded view on the subject of immigration. It's a complex issue. My point (the one I have continuously been making in post after post) is that it is not merely a simple matter of integrating immigrants into society thus doing away with ghettos.
Firstly, no one has provided this debate with ANY credible evidence that there are any immigrant ghettos in Ireland. I don't need to provide evidence that there aren't to prove my point!


You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts
What obvious facts? What are they...these unspoken facts that you are referring to that others seem scared to say? I've been bombarded with evidence that there are Black American ghettos in America and that there have been numerous race riots over the past century in the US. What has that got to do with the potential rise of immigrant ghettos developing in Ireland?
I've provided concrete evidence of non-Roman Catholic communities already living in relative harmony with the rest of Irish society yet being very much segragated in terms of where they live. I haven't seen any ghettos. That doesn't mean to suggest that there aren't any racial issues to be dealt with in Ireland right now. There are.

However, I'm highly suspicious of some of Tizona's comments...which is where this debate kicked off. Perhaps you agree with him Brain and are afraid of all those "extremeist leaders" that we need to put a stop to? Or perhaps you recognise that dealing with immigrants in terms of working toward some sort of racial harmony in Ireland in the coming years has as much to do with our treatment of them as it does with proper immigration control.

I've had to ask the same questions over and over because no one seems willing to answer them for me....resorting instead to petty name calling and trying to rile me. It says a lot more about their ability to think through the argument and perhaps their own prejudices.
 
P

Piggy you are a panic! I can't believe anyone can be as utterly effing clueless as you seem to be. I'm surprised you've managed to survive let alone land a cushy internet browsing job.

Btw, it's hard to figure out which is more galling: your seeming obliviousness to the untenability of your own position or your persistant martyred tone when you are not in the midst of one of your wild agreement-orgies.

Live long and prosper.
 
captain quencher

What a fantastic argument. You really showed me. Please point out what is clueless in any of my points...unless of course you're just trolling because you have nothing better to do?


On a more general note I see this debate sliding rapidly downhill because all the piggy haters come out of the woodwork. It's a shame that people can't argue issues without resorting to petty name calling and trolling in some ambitious bid to usurp another posters point of view It's also possibly a good reason, in my opinion, to only allow registered users to debate in LOS.
I can at least stand here and defend every point I make without logging in as some new unregistered user every five minutes to toss some chlidish slurs at a poster because of his viewpoint on any given subject. If you have an issue with something I've said then point it out and I'll gladly clarify it for you.
 
orey-eyed and porcine

I can at least stand here and defend every point I make ... If you have an issue with something I've said then point it out and I'll gladly clarify it for you.
Click to expand...

Riotous!

There should be a "Famous Quotes" thread for classics like this.
 
Piggy supporter (sometimes)

You seem to be on your own at present against about 5 of them (or one using different names, I don't know)

But to try and discuss properly, I would like to put one point accross

I know that there is many communities in Ireland that maybe do not integrate to a large extent but I feel there is a real possibility of future "immigrant" ghetoes forming

Most of the existing communities are either better off of seen to be better off
Most of the current immigrats are percived to be spongers
(I am not saying they are or are not, I have no evidence) but that is the perception

In recent years in Ireland there has developed a classist system, I feel
10-15 years ago no matter how much money people had they deemed themselves to be working class, and down to earth
Now, no matter how little money people have they deem themselves (and their expensive credit-lifestyle) to be a middle-class lifestyle
Therefore no one wants an "immigrant" living next door or on their street

The current set of people coming to this country tend to be living in communities (which is neither good nor bad) but unfortunately the areas generally tend to be the areas that are looked down on by some people

As a result there is a strong possibility that these areas could become ghettoised
 
Re: Piggy supporter (sometimes)

You seem to be on your own at present against about 5 of them

I've no problem being out on my own in a debate. What I do have a problem with is the childish slurs that they're (he's) using as an argument, due to a lack of any credible point.

Most of the current immigrats are percived to be spongers
(I am not saying they are or are not, I have no evidence) but that is the perception
It is the perception by some...I'm not pointing my finger at you at all Joe...but it is very often the same mentality that says 'they're taking our jobs from us'. This is one of the most important issues we need to address in this country.

The current set of people coming to this country tend to be living in communities (which is neither good nor bad) but unfortunately the areas generally tend to be the areas that are looked down on by some people
This is quite true. I can only speak about Dublin because I don't know what the situation is in country towns and cities. The thing to bear in mind right now is that those immigrants who are moving into the less salubrious parts of Dublin are living side by side with existing resident Irish people. How we manage the situation from a logistical point of view will determine whether we have immigrant ghettos in 20 years time or not. Some people might argue that certain parts of Dublin are already ghettos...so perhaps we should be focusing on bringing up the standard of some parts of the city so that we don't have a situation where ghettos can develop.
 
Failed Multiculturalism

Just when you thought it was safe to go back on Letting Off Steam...

Interesting article in last Sundays Times. Trevor McDonalds views on multiculturalism seem to be at odds with Piggys...as do those of the Chairman on the Comission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips.

Some quotes: (PS both men are Black and Immigrants!)

Those in the ’hood alarmed by the assault on multiculturalism by Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, will find no comfort from the man who tops polls as Britain’s most trusted newscaster.

“Trevor is a friend and I totally agree,” he says. “But I would say something even stronger: if you don’t want to integrate, why come to Britain?” It is a deadly simple point but one white politicos are too politically correct to utter. “I am an unashamed integrationist.”
- Trevor McDonald

www.timesonline.co.uk/new...23,00.html

Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE), the publicly-funded body which monitors anti-discrimination law in the UK, has called for an abandonment of Britain’s traditional “multicultural” approach to race relations.

In a marked shift to the right, Phillips has said that in its stead the commission must assert “a core of Britishness.”

The Times asked him, “But is not multiculturalism the whole point of the Commission?”
He replied, “The word is not useful, it means the wrong things.”
“Shall we kill it off?” the reporters asked.
“Yes, let’s do that.” Phillips agreed, “Multiculturalism suggests separateness. We are now in a different world.”

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3615379.stm

Get with the program Piggy. Even the Multiculturalists agree the concept is now OUTDATED.
 
Failed Multiculturalism

> Some quotes: (PS both men are Black and Immigrants!)

So what? That doesn't make their views any more relevant than anybody elses' on this topic. To assume that it does betrays a fundamentally prejudiced mindset in my view.
 
Multiculturalism

Good God you really are incredible.

The Chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality in the UK has no more valid an opinion than yours!
I think several million UK citizens would beg to differ.
What arrogance!

Thank christ you're actually just a nobody.
 
Multiculturalism

Qoute:

"Thank christ you're actually just a nobody."

So are you tits. Except you're also a racist bigot to boot.
 
Multiculturalism

And you're obviously a sexist pig.

I sense victory.
 
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