Immigrants to fill 400,000 Jobs

Christianity

> this country will always be a Christian country by the simple fact that its entire value system, parliamentary system, legal system, economic system and its very history define us as a Christian - Western - Democratic society...and like it or not thats what we are and nothing will ever change it.

If you think that nothing ever changes in this respect consider the fact that Ireland was not always as it is today - e.g. pre and post Christian pagan influences, Brehon law etc. - and some of these influences still inform our society as it stands today.

> In point of fact though, even if the contributors to this board are all non Christians, you represent a tiny minority of the population of the country. You are disproportionately represented here, so don't make the mistake of congratulating yourself on the removal of Christian values from Irish society in general just yet, or any time in the near future.

Nobody claimed that (a) most or all of the AAM community are non Christian (b) that we thought of ourselves as some sort of influential group (minority or otherwise) (c) were were congratulating ourselves over the secularisation of Irish society. I simply stated some of my personal views but I certainly don't expect that everybody here or elsewhere agrees with me.

> We are far from it.

I wouldn't say that we are far from it and some of us live in hope...

Re: Christianity

even if the contributors to this board are all non Christians, you represent a tiny minority of the population of the country...don't make the mistake of congratulating yourself on the removal of Christian values from Irish society in general just yet

Eh...where do you get this opinion from? Was anyone congratulating anyone??

I'm a Christian, in that I was baptised Roman Catholic by Roman Catholic parents. I think what you mean to say is that perhaps not everyone who contributes to this board are practising Catholics, or as God fearing as their parents, or Christian.
Practising your faith is something very much on the decline in this country, particularly prevelant in the Roman Catholic Church.
I'd hazard a guess that even a great number of practising Christians in this country would be in favour of separating Church and State more and more. But...we've gone way off topic here.

Christian values

I'm afraid my point went right over both your heads.

This has got absolutely nothing to do with how many of the population practise a christian religion.

Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland (or failing that, that it would be a good thing if it were) do not lead me to believe you are anything but self-congratulatory, and self-deluded.

Its clearly inferred, and clearly wrong.

Re: Christian values

Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland

No one stated that it is dead. I stated that practicing Catholicism is on the decline. This is not self-congratulatory, merely a reasonably well known fact.

lead me to believe you are anything but self-congratulatory, and self-deluded

Self-deluded? Where's the delusion?

Its clearly inferred, and clearly wrong.
How is what clearly wrong? The self-delusion that you haven't qualified yet?

Christian values

> I'm afraid my point went right over both your heads.

If it did maybe the problem doesn't lie with us? I don't really undestand your ostensible correlation of Western and Democratic with Christian to be honest. I do understand that Christianity in its different forms has been the dominant religion in Europe for centuries now but (a) it wasn't always that way and (b) I don't see how that necessarily influences (with the exception of the earlier constitutional stuff that I mentioned) the legal basis for a state such as ours.

> Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland (or failing that, that it would be a good thing if it were) do not lead me to believe you are anything but self-congratulatory, and self-deluded

Whose repeated statemetents? I personally don't care what religion (if any) people choose to practice or how many of them do so but I do strongly favour a complete separation of church/religious ethos and state. I am not anti-religion. I am pro secularism.

Christianity

Do I really have to spell it out?

Oh well, here goes.

Practising Catholics may be on the wane - if you use church attendance as the yardstick - but Christian belief, values and tradition are not on the wane. They are integral with our Irishness. I am not a practising catholic, but I hold deeply founded christian values - because I was born and brought up as an Irishman and its a deeply rooted part of Irish - and European - culture. I'm proud of my Irish, Christian, Democratic, Secular, Western Culture.

Incidentally, to say that Christian culture in europe has had no influence on 'the legal basis of the state' is deeply myopic.

Christianity

> but I hold deeply founded christian values - because I was born and brought up as an Irishman and its a deeply rooted part of Irish - and European - culture. I'm proud of my Irish, Christian, Democratic, Secular, Western Culture.

Who's to say that many of the same values don't emanate from secular belief systems such as social democracy and humanism, for example, that have also been widely held throughout Europe for the past few centuries? To say that Christian culture holds sway throughout Europe is as logical as saying that idolatry does just because the Greeks and Romans influenced us so much... :\

> Incidentally, to say that Christian culture in europe has had no influence on 'the legal basis of the state' is deeply myopic.

That is not what I said.

Christianity

Who's to say that many of the same values don't emanate from secular belief systems such as social democracy and humanism, for example, that have also been widely held throughout Europe for the past few centuries?

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I don't see Social Democrats as necessarily incompatible with Christian Culture....except perhaps in their most extreme versions. Where in Western Europe do the extreme Left hold sway in government? Nowhere.
Likewise with Humanism.
They are extreme flavours of thought that are generally on the fringes of popular mainstream politics.
One could argue that Humanism only exists as a mirror image of the Christian culture which defines it and gives it reason to live. It too is therefore a byproduct of Christian culture!

Anyhow, a few hundred years of rebel thinking is of no consequence when set beside two thousand years of Christian culture. Like Communism and Naziism, they are here today, gone tomorrow. Christian culture flows on.

Re: Christianity

And here was me thinking we weren't allowed talk about religion anymore!!

I hold deeply founded christian values

Would those be type of Christian values?

"It really sickens and saddens me to see Irish people swallow the lies they've been fed by the liberal media about Islam. They have lost their souls to the point of grovelling after the Koran and Muhammed, while at the same time rejecting This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ and the Bible."


They sound very fundamentalist to me if you don't mind me saying so and nothing like the Christianity I was taught as a child.

Re: Christianity

Immigrants to fill vacancies?

Remember

Christianity

Why don't you reference that quote to the thread it came from? It was part of a discussion where you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity. I stand fully by the comments in that context.

Just to clarify one other thing.
I have no difficulty whatever with immigration per se, but the buzz word 'multiculturalism' is proven to have been a sham and a failure in many other european countries. Not least the UK where there are distinct ethic/religious divides in many cities, and race relations are deteriorating rapidly.

The real answer is not multiculturalism but integration. The British have belatedly realised it with Blunketts introduction of basic legislation requiring aspiring immigrants to learn english, learn some British history, and swear allegiance to the state they wish to adopt.
All absolutely obvious and necessary first steps to an integrated society.

It does not mean an immigrant having to give up their culture and ignore its benefits to the host nation, but it is not acceptable that immigrants isolate and ghettoise themselves in a closeted culture that turns in on itself and comes to resent its host culture.

Re: Christianity

I'm sorry...I don't mean to hijack this debate. If you could just clarify this comment I'll move on.

you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity

Where exactly did I praise and glorify Islam and denigrate and attack Catholicism and Christianity?

And yes...I did reference the thread those comments came from. The link is on the word 'these'.


Getting back to topic...

It does not mean an immigrant having to give up their culture and ignore its benefits to the host nation, but it is not acceptable that immigrants isolate and ghettoise themselves in a closeted culture that turns in on itself and comes to resent its host culture

Can you provide some examples of this in present day Ireland. What group of immigrants are you referring to exactly?

Re: Christianity

> Anyhow, a few hundred years of rebel thinking is of no consequence when set beside two thousand years of Christian culture. Like Communism and Naziism, they are here today, gone tomorrow. Christian culture flows on.

Tizona - some might justifiably claim that the system that holds most influence over Europe and most of the rest of the world these days is free market capitalism - a system that is often at odds with Christian values and beliefs. I have a strong suspicion that Mammon means more to many, many people in their everyday lives than Christ regardless of what hypocritical claims that might make to the contrary. Christianity (as with other movements and belief systems) have obviously influenced us and our nation but to say that we are a "Christian country" now just doesn't make sense to me.

Immigration

Can you provide some examples of this in present day Ireland. What group of immigrants are you referring to exactly?

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All of them! It is a common trait among immigrant peoples everwhere (including the Irish in the US) that they tend to ghettoise from - or be ghettoised by - the dominant host culture. The Irish in the US eventually integrated because they had much in common with the host culture, such as language and Christianity. Note however that they also managed to retain a sense of their Irishness in the process.

Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.

Its too early yet to see how this is going to pan out in Ireland, but if we ignore it and bury our heads in the sand like the British did...we'll eventually have the same problems. Before you sing the praises of multiculturalism, I'd like to know how many Nigerians you are personally friendly with? How many Chinese natives you go out for pints with? How many Lithuanians or Romanians you invite over for dinner on a regular basis?

<blank> I think you are in denial, and you are welcome to your opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Immigration

> <blank> I think you are in denial

Yes - I deny that Ireland is a "Christian country" because I don't see any hard evidence that this is the case. Seems a rational standpoint to me.

Re: Immigration

The Irish in the US eventually integrated because they had much in common with the host culture, such as language and Christianity
The host culture? The Native American Indians? Modern day America was formed by immigrants. They were all immigrants weren't they?

These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.
What communities and what extremist leaders are you referring to exactly?

I'd like to know how many Nigerians you are personally friendly with? How many Chinese natives you go out for pints with? How many Lithuanians or Romanians you invite over for dinner on a regular basis?
None, none, none and none. Neither am I particularly friendly with any Limerick-men, Kerry-men, Clare-men...the list goes on. I fail to see the point here. Just because I haven't had any Kerry-men over to dinner recently doesn't mean squat.

Finally, when you make a claim like this...
you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity
...it's common courtesy to either back it up when asked or else withdraw it.

Immigration

Piggy if you insist on being stupid I can't be bothered wasting my time on you. The host culture in America was American Indians? The Indian Wars ended in 1890, and the American Indian population on the east coast was extinct 50 years before that - when the Irish were arriving in famine ships on the eastern seaboard (where they mostly remained).
It was called the Wild West...not the Wild East.

I also see now that your words about immigration are just empty expressions of Political Correctness without a grain of honesty or meaning behind them.

Immigration

Tizona, a mhúinteoir - are you not going to spank me too? I'm feeling a bit left out.

Re: Immigration

The Native American Indian remark was tongue in cheek.

I also see now that your words about immigration are just empty expressions of Political Correctness without a grain of honesty or meaning behind them

I find myself having to ask this a lot these days. What do you base this on?
When I'm debating something with someone else I debate the specific points they're making, while trying not to make spurious remarks with no grounding. Can you point to some specific comments I've made which leads you to this conclusion and perhaps answer some of my queries?

While you're at it, and for the third time, can you back up this claim please or withdraw it?
you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity

Piggy

Go on piggy admit it, you said it, or your alter persona did.

Hurry up,its nearly 5PM Friday, better get a swift retort in before you hit the pub. Oink Oink.