If you couldn't tell that FF have a serious, serious problem with corruption after all that came out about Bertie in that campaign, then we have no hope.What I'm trying to say is if you can just bring yourself one level deeper than hindsight and place yourself on 24th May 2007, tell me
1) What did we know as an electorate about the impending meltdown of the banking system (it's true that there were warnings from some economists but the general view was that our banks were well capitalised)?
2) How in the name of God we would have known whether FF, FG or Labour would handle such a crisis better?
In fact, in relation to point 2 we still don't know with hindsight. I can not say categorically whether we'd be in a better place now if Anglo failed.
Very well summarised. As an electorate all we have is a choice of conservative interventionism or liberal interventionism. Both are as destructive to the economy as each other. And those that will suffer the most are the very people we need most: entrepreneurs.I’m not a FF voter; I have not voted for an FF candidate since Bertie took over so there’s no guilt on my part. I see my choices at the next election between the crony socialism of FF, in inept populism of FG or the smug moral superiority of Labour. The problem with FG, aside from their disjointed policies, is their leader. He has not got a clue how to lead and so no one will follow. The problem with Labour, aside from their smug moral superiority, is their strong anti-business policies, and their utter lack of understanding of how to allow the economy to create wealth for the benefit of society. This lack of understanding is shown over and over again by their supporters and members on TV & Radio, in the newspapers and even on this site.
I suppose I’ll have to vote for FG as the nightmare scenario is a Labour dominated government with someone like Joan Burton as minister for finance. While she’s no fool her socialist ideological dogma will inform her views on all matters. It would be a bit like putting a very clever creationist in charge of a genetics department in a university. Dogma has no place in economics or science.
Anyone who thinks corruption is the root cause of our problems is very naive.
Cheap credit, an ECB interest rate that was way to low for our economy, social partnership agreements that couldn't allow hard decisions to be made and crony-socialism (and capitalism) were alos on the mix.
If you vote for people that you know are corrupt, then you deserve everything you get.
Ah lads, now denial is not a river in Egypt. If that's the worst that you can throw at Labour, then really, it is squeaky clean. One junior Minister stupid enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - no offence committed - no Garda/DPP charges. But a handy leak from within the Gardai to the O'Reilly newspapers. And a vague allegation from the dark distant past about a different party, some of whose members are now in Labour?Again, the real dirt on Bertie (nothing of which has been yet proven as I understand) did not come out until 2008.
There were plenty of murmurs before then which you would have strongly believed if you had an anti FF bias to begin with.
Michael Lowry from his FG day has had plenty of accusations against him.
Labour are not exactly as clean as a whistle on the accusations front either. Some of which were founded (Night time Phoenix Park trips) and others unfounded (printing counterfeit money).
So you may have convinced yourself that it's clear to the whole world that FF are corrupt to the core and Labour are squeaky clean and anyone who didn't immediately believe every rumour regarding FF corruption was naive, but I'm not sure that's the case.
If you had chosen Labour, we wouldn't be paying €50 billion odd for Anglo and Irish Nationwide now.
You conveniently forget that we wouldn't need an ECB/IMF package if FF hadn't written a blank cheque to cover the debts of Anglo and INBS. The whole reason for the run on Irish bonds was the doubt in the market about the size of the solution required to fix these banks.A suitably vague statement that's very light on how they would have actually managed to do this.
You conveniently forget that one of the terms of the ECB propping up the entire banking system in this country is that senior bondholders don't get burnt.
Labour are under no illusions about what the party is getting into. The pressure that came on the Greens will be in the ha'penny place compared to the pressure that will come onto Labour, particularly with the huge right wing media bias that exists in Ireland today.I look forward to labour coming into power. You'll quickly see the same change from sanctimony to realism that we witnessed in the Greens over the past 3 years. Get ready for it.
So you voted FF then.And I'll reiterate that I think it's petty, highly insulting, undemocratically minded and nauseatingly smug to label 40% of the electorate fools and say they should be guilty for not choosing your crowd.
Anyone who thinks corruption is the root cause of our problems is very naive.
Cheap credit, an ECB interest rate that was way to low for our economy, social partnership agreements that couldn't allow hard decisions to be made and crony-socialism (and capitalism) were alos on the mix.
If you had chosen Labour, we wouldn't be paying €50 billion odd for Anglo and Irish Nationwide now.
One of the opinion polls at the weekend had a Labour/SF coalition as a very possible outcome. The prospect of that should send shudders up middle Ireland and could lead to tactical fallback to voting for FF - unpalatable though that may be. From my point of view, I find the lack of palatable alternatives depressing.The other danger on it's way is SF. That's lethal. More toxic to the state than anything FF managed.
Yeah I've been amongst the 45% of people who elected the government in the last 13 years, so I guess who else is there to blame for the whole mess.So you voted FF then.
How do you know how much we would have ended up paying under Labour? Are you seriously suggesting that Labour had some magic low cost solution for the banking crisis. Amazing how I have never heard it. All I heard was nationalise the banks. How much would that have saved? Would love to see your figures.
No, but with Labour we'd have had much higher levels of public spending which would have further overheated the economy.
How do you know how much we would have ended up paying under Labour? Are you seriously suggesting that Labour had some magic low cost solution for the banking crisis. Amazing how I have never heard it. All I heard was nationalise the banks. How much would that have saved? Would love to see your figures.
One of the opinion polls at the weekend had a Labour/SF coalition as a very possible outcome. The prospect of that should send shudders up middle Ireland and could lead to tactical fallback to voting for FF - unpalatable though that may be. From my point of view, I find the lack of palatable alternatives depressing.
The other danger on it's way is SF. That's lethal. More toxic to the state than anything FF managed.
I'm just surprised he didn't wait a few more years to allow the benefit of even more hindsight to say what Labour would have hypothetically done.
Yeah I've been amongst the 45% of people who elected the government in the last 13 years, so I guess who else is there to blame for the whole mess.
Interesting to see O'Reilly Newspapers trying to undermine Labour with 'guilt by association' with SF over the weekend, regardless of what Gilmore has already said about SF.
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