I am always amazed that when bad things happen the assumption is that any alternative leadership or direction will automatically be better. This is not a defence of our current leadership by any means but I do believe that things could get a lot worse if we put the wrong people in power at the next election.
IMF loan - what's not to like
- Thread starter Bronte
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I am always amazed that when bad things happen the assumption is that any alternative leadership or direction will automatically be better. This is not a defence of our current leadership by any means but I do believe that things could get a lot worse if we put the wrong people in power at the next election.
The reality is in a couple of months we are going to have to vote on a new government. The choice of forming a new government will be FF, FG, LAB, SF.
The likelyhood is it will either be a FF led government or a FG/ LAB.
FF have left us with one of the biggest property crash in history, one of the most expensive bank bailouts in history and one of the largest deficits/GDP ratios in the EU. Oh yeah and the IMF have taken over. They have run the country into the ground.
How could it be any worse?
What amazes me is that people won't vote Labour because of links with public sector unions and yet it was FF that introduced two rounds of benchmarking, succesive pay deals, increased PS numbers and never bothered to reduce numbers in Health when the HSE was formed.
The likelyhood is it will either be a FF led government or a FG/ LAB.
FF have left us with one of the biggest property crash in history, one of the most expensive bank bailouts in history and one of the largest deficits/GDP ratios in the EU. Oh yeah and the IMF have taken over. They have run the country into the ground.
How could it be any worse?
What amazes me is that people won't vote Labour because of links with public sector unions and yet it was FF that introduced two rounds of benchmarking, succesive pay deals, increased PS numbers and never bothered to reduce numbers in Health when the HSE was formed.
Mass Repossessions
Collapse of Social Welfare System
Banks shut - no cash at ATMs
Increase in crime
Exodus of US MNCs to safer/ cheaper/ more tax efficient locations
National strikes closing hospitals and schools
Shut down of public transportation infrastructure
Loss of savings. loans called in by liquidators of financial institutions
...need I go on?
My point was that your assertion that things could not be any worse was deluded. It was not a message of support for the people who have made the many mistakes of the last decade.
I care more about understanding the risks we face and identifying who best can address them. The blame game and giving the opposition a 'chance', IMHO, get us nowhere.
Back on topic, the IMF loan doe seem fine and ignoring whether or not we should take the loan, we would be better off if we could have got all the money needed from the IMF.
Smart_Saver
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Fair enough - however someone has to be in power to implement the policies (including IMF ones) and bring fw legislation/budgets/etc. to run the country.
I did not say things would not get any worse. They quite possiblly will, but if they do I doubt it will be the fault of an incoming government as they won't even have control over the economy. It will be down to FF policies.
My point regards thing not being worse at present is that if other parties had been on government the past decade I doubt we would find ourselves in a worse position as we are today.
The reality is that when the election comes, FF will have to ask people to vote on their track record for the past 13 years in government has been a dismal failure. Either people vote for this failed government who have brought the IMF into the country to run it for us or vote for one of the opposition parties. They will be taking a chance because they have not been in government for so long but that's reality.
This government has no credibility.
I think your 100% correct on this, and people would do well to understand that the above were far from remote possibilities.
That said, FF are tired. A few of their main men/women have been shown to be inept and a few of the good ones will stand down.
I think FG/Labour have enough remaining experience from the 94-97 era not to be too naive about being in government
Complainer
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I find that most people who come out with this line are those who voted FF last time and are still trying find ways to assuage their own guilt.
Well if those who are well accustomed to being in government have brought us to our knees than how bad will a change be? I have no worries about people being in charge who are not used to it. I worry about the quality of the people we have to choose from and their capabilites.
40% of people voted FF.
You are categorically saying they have something to be guilty about.
The natural defensive response it to analyse whether that is the case.
For example, one might ask what did FG or Labour promise in their 2002 & 2007 election manifestos that would have left us in a better place?
I think it's possible we would have been better off, but it's also possible we would have been worse off (see ontours list).
Above all though, I think nothing that was said or done and nothing in those manifestos came through stongly enough to persuade the people that FF were leading us into disaster.
Having now seen budgetary plans, I'm happy that FGs are as good (if not better) than FFs. So I might lean towards voting FG.
If we do end up in the scenarios under a FG/Lab govt that ontour has highlighted, I don't expect FG/Lab voters to bear any guilt, as we have no way of telling that they would be any more likely to lead us into those situations than any alternative govt (other than the shinners
)Complainer
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Or for example, one might ask what party opposed the blanket guarantee and would not have led us into a situation where €40 billion of state funds are going into Anglo Irish bank.
I know it is the function of the opposition to be as populist as possible in order to get into power but all FG and Labour did for the last ten years was tell the government that they weren’t spending enough. FG would have just done the same things and more and Labour would have taxed the skilled managers and technical people who start and run businesses out of the country.
I’m not a FF voter; I have not voted for an FF candidate since Bertie took over so there’s no guilt on my part. I see my choices at the next election between the crony socialism of FF, in inept populism of FG or the smug moral superiority of Labour. The problem with FG, aside from their disjointed policies, is their leader. He has not got a clue how to lead and so no one will follow. The problem with Labour, aside from their smug moral superiority, is their strong anti-business policies, and their utter lack of understanding of how to allow the economy to create wealth for the benefit of society. This lack of understanding is shown over and over again by their supporters and members on TV & Radio, in the newspapers and even on this site.
I suppose I’ll have to vote for FG as the nightmare scenario is a Labour dominated government with someone like Joan Burton as minister for finance. While she’s no fool her socialist ideological dogma will inform her views on all matters. It would be a bit like putting a very clever creationist in charge of a genetics department in a university. Dogma has no place in economics or science.
Then again maybe I'll vote for FF this time
Good summary, Purple. If Labour do well then it is highly likely that Joan would be Minister for Finance so the lesser of the poor options is probably to ensure the FG do very well so that they can use independents or other minority groupings to form the next government leaving Labour in opposition.
The good thing about Enda taking power is that I will watch a lot less television as I attempt to forget that he is our leader.
The good thing about Enda taking power is that I will watch a lot less television as I attempt to forget that he is our leader.
What I'm trying to say is if you can just bring yourself one level deeper than hindsight and place yourself on 24th May 2007, tell me
1) What did we know as an electorate about the impending meltdown of the banking system (it's true that there were warnings from some economists but the general view was that our banks were well capitalised)?
2) How in the name of God we would have known whether FF, FG or Labour would handle such a crisis better?
In fact, in relation to point 2 we still don't know with hindsight. I can not say categorically whether we'd be in a better place now if Anglo failed.
Of course its a defense. Its defending the indefensible. Its a common FF tactic akin to Peter Sutcliffe saying ''ah sure someone else would have killed them if I hadnt'' and the pathetic thing is some people of limited intellect actually swallow it.
To expand your analogy; The other people concerned spent their time saying that they would have not just killed them but killed others as well.
So if I understand you correctly, you are of the school of thought that if FG/LAB had been leading the country since the last election we would not be facing the problems we are now??
People of limited intellect believe the people who say that they predicted everything and that everything that they proposed would have us in a utopian bliss.
FF had already destroyed the country since well before the last election. Their behaviour since then was to stone the Fire Brigade at the scene of the explosion.
Any new government would have been unfairly blamed for the mess FF caused because thats how FF ruthlessly operate by twisting the truth with the aim of electoral gain and the pursuit of power. O Rourke in the Dail recently commending the government for drops in the live register is a case in point. The fact that it was due to forced emigration with families being torn apart due to mismanagement of the country was not important to the FF spin machine.
The social partnership model meant that no government could ever make tough decisions; whoever was there they had to give all things to all men. No government since the mid 90's was going to change this disaster, the dye was cast a long time ago.