Case study Illegal parking in ungated apartment car park

[Right Winger]

Thanks again RightWinger. Section 5 is not relevant to parking illegally. It deals with trustee malpractice, transfer of defective title and other unrelated matters.

Let's agree to disagree on that! A parking space (or the right to cccupy it) is "land" whatever way you look at it, and by my reading, excluded by virtue of S5. I may be wrong!

When making a statement to Gardaí, all the elements will be there neatly packaged, including a signed witness statement, photos of the warning signs and of the vehicle illegally parked, the context for making the statement, and copy of the notice issued to the driver.

....all if which is evidentially useful, if and only if, the underlying activity complained of is a criminal act. But we disagree on that

We are also meeting the local Superintendent to explain our actions, so that they will be ready for us. The Gardaí cannot ignore a complaint when it includes prima facie evidence of law breaking. They will at the very least make contact with the driver, who in most cases will not appreciate this.

Gardaí are specially trained in the prolific use of the phrase "this is a civil matter and there's nothing we can do"

However, we calculate that very few drivers will risk allowing it to get this far, opting instead to make the voluntary contribution to our management company,

Am I getting this right? You're proposing soliciting a "voluntary" financial contribution or else a criminal complaint will be made to AGS?? That sounds awfully like "demanding money with menaces" if the parkers' behaviour isn't actually a criminal act. Or even if it is - there's no civil penalty to which you're entitled. And even if it is, we could be looking at the crime of perverting justice.

resolving never to park there again, and bad-mouthing us to whoever will listen. That last part is the bit we are most hoping will happen. Once the word spreads, our work is done.

Agree. The dissuasive effect is what you need.

Regarding the rota of volunteers, that would indeed be fun if it were not so illegal.

Is it though? The car park of an apartment complex is private property and not a "public place" within the meaning of the Road Traffic or Public Order Acts. You can park your car anywhere you like on your property or where the property owner (mgt company) has given you permission. Does the fact that it may inconvenience some unlawful trespasser render your otherwise lawful parking illegal?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

When making a statement to Gardaí, all the elements will be there neatly packaged, including a signed witness statement, photos of the warning signs and of the vehicle illegally parked, the context for making the statement, and copy of the notice issued to the driver. We are also meeting the local Superintendent to explain our actions, so that they will be ready for us.

I assumed (and I suspect other did as well) that this was an idle threat. Your approach will involve a lot of hanging around Garda stations waiting to give statements, especially given Garda priorities (see more below).

The Gardaí cannot ignore a complaint when it includes prima facie evidence of law breaking.

IANAL but it's a bit of a logical leap to get to criminal law breaking and, even if that is assumed, for AGS to take it seriously.

They will at the very least make contact with the driver,

I wouldn't even assume this much.

As a taxpayer to be honest I find attempts to rope AGS into this a bit questionable especially as you haven't exhausted all civil methods. I suspect your local superintendent might feel the same way, but again I'm curious as to what they'll say.

 

[Kfox92]

Put a fake clamp on on of the residents cars close to the entrance. Someone who comes in that is not a resident sees that and would likely re-think parking there

 

[_OkGo_]

We have come up with a new approach, which is to leaflet offending drivers with a notice saying that by temporarily depriving the management company of a parking space, we suspect that they have committed the offence of Theft of Service, contrary to Section 4 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001, adding that a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction to a fine or imprisonment.

I'm being a little facetious here but your new approach and your justification for it sounds like you don't own the spots that you are trying to protect, otherwise you would have used clampers.

If beach goers are parking in actual residents spots then why doesn't each resident install a parking bollard to protect their own space? These aren't that expensive and can be controlled electronically so no need to get in/out of your car. You could even arrange for a group install to make it cost effective.

It sounds like you are trying to retain visitor spots that have become defacto residents spots and the management company are not going to bow down to the residents who shouldn't be parking there either.

Or maybe I'm wrong...

 

[huskerdu]

Thanks Huskerdu. I will post updates. Two factors make me optimistic about this. First, the power of the bush telegraph. Bad news spreads fast and we hope that fewer people will take the chance of parking in our space. Second, human nature. Related to the first point, rather than risk being taken to court, we calculate that enough people will opt for the voluntary contribution to our management company to spread the word that we are serious about deterring illegal parking.

Good luck with your plan,

Im not convincved that

1. These parkers know each other and will advise each other about the risk of parking in your complex
2. That a lot of people will take your threat to contact the Gardi seriously
3. That the Gardai will do anything if you make a complaint ( they are likely to see it as a civil matter, IMHO)

 

[fistophobia]

My ongoing parking saga;

I installed 4 heavy duty locked bars, at a cost of e300 each. Two of them are gone, driven over, demolished.
Clamping, no parking signs are constantly ignored.
I had double-yellow lines painted on the spaces... ignored.
I have had stand-up arguments with people parking. Its really not good for my stress levels.
Last year I lost it completely .... I had a friend that is a tree surgeon come along, he dropped off a huge felled tree across the 4 car spaces.
If I cant use my spaces, then nobody can. I have since chainsawed them away, and the problems have resumed.
On Youtube, theres a Dublin guy called "White Moose Cafe". Have a look at his unique way of policing rogue parkers.

 

[L_earner]

I'm being a little facetious here but your new approach and your justification for it sounds like you don't own the spots that you are trying to protect, otherwise you would have used clampers.

If beach goers are parking in actual residents spots then why doesn't each resident install a parking bollard to protect their own space? These aren't that expensive and can be controlled electronically so no need to get in/out of your car. You could even arrange for a group install to make it cost effective.

It sounds like you are trying to retain visitor spots that have become defacto residents spots and the management company are not going to bow down to the residents who shouldn't be parking there either.

Or maybe I'm wrong...

Thanks for your post OkGo. The situation is that the management company owns the parking spaces, but decided not to use clampers because that involves a lot of grief for everybody concerned. Installing parking bollards is costly, and residents already pay enough in management fees and contributions to the sinking fund.
The rollout started today. Nobody leafletted yet as there is plenty of space on the public road where parking is free. One unexpected development is that most of the residents have decided to become involved, reflecting the level of frustration they are feeling about those who feel they can use the limited parking spaces at will.

 

[L_earner]

On Youtube, theres a Dublin guy called "White Moose Cafe". Have a look at his unique way of policing rogue parkers.

In a nutshell he monetised the situation. Makes me wonder if we should not simply do the same: put up a ridiculous price per hour, and see what the tide brings in.

 

[L_earner]

Im not convincved that ... the Gardai will do anything if you make a complaint ( they are likely to see it as a civil matter, IMHO)

We are not convinced either, but it is worth trying, and if we fail, we have lost nothing. We do have a persuasive argument for the local superintendent: as far as we know this has not been tried before, so there is a chance that it will go on to be treated as a test case, which could enhance the status of that particular Garda division.

 

[DannyBoyD]

Be sure & give us an update in 6 months time

 

[arbitron]

So the community is unwilling to spend a couple of hundred euro on bollards and moving a chain is too inconvenient but they're happy to use Garda time and therefore taxpayer resources on a parking issue...

 

[DannyBoyD]

they're happy to use Garda time

Correction: they are willing to try and use Garda time. Most of us here have advised it's unlikely to get far.

 

[shweeney]

why choose a simple option when you can go for a convoluted and totally ineffective one. Particularly if the simple option involves having to occasionally get out of your car for 10 seconds.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

The more I read the more I think this is either someone trying to test an arcane point of law or as @_OkGo_ says there are bigger issues with how resident and visitor parking is managed that are too delicate to tackle.

 

[Right Winger]

We are not convinced either, but it is worth trying, and if we fail, we have lost nothing. We do have a persuasive argument for the local superintendent: as far as we know this has not been tried before, so there is a chance that it will go on to be treated as a test case, which could enhance the status of that particular Garda division.

It sounds like you haven't spoken to the local Superintendent yet. Look, why don't you have a quick chat and at least get his/her view. Short odds you'll hear the "this is a civil matter" catchphrase. Very, very long odds it'll be taken on as a test case to enhance the Garda division's status. AGS doesn't work like that!!

 

[Salvadore]

Near where I live, there’s a short public road with about 10 houses which would be very popular with day parkers.

The occupiers obviously got together and put up a series of ‘no parking’ signs etc. One of the signs outlines a threat of clamping fee with a release fee of 150 POUNDS! I’ve seen cars plastered with those hard to remove stickers advising transgressors that they shouldn’t have parked there.

Notwithstanding the jurisdictional confusion regarding the release fee, the approach seems to work. It’s all illegal but you can’t say it isn’t effective.

 

[AlbacoreA]

I like the idea of rack with fake clamps and big sign ready to go. Visible on the entrance.

 

[fistophobia]

Interesting way of dealing with person parking in your space...

'I arrived home to find someone parked in my drive - so I ruined their weekend'

The 'entitled driver' will likely think twice about parking in somebody else's drive again after the homeowner decided to ruin their weekend.

www.irishmirror.ie

 

[arbitron]

Any updates @L_earner ?

 

[L_earner]

Any updates @L_earner ?

Residents were shy about using the leaflet when we began in June. Then it turned damp with no really nice weekends until September when the fun started.
Short version. The leaflets caused some anger, but apparently they had the desired effect. We did not pass on any driver’s details to the Gardaí, so we assume that the bush telegraph spread the word.