ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms)
- Thread starter Sparki74
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I've been on site with Euromac and Polarwall in the last 2 months. It is worth going out to see one of these houses. Do some "tyre kicking" if you like. Neither were plastered yet though.
As regards how good the systems are, I was discussing this with an engineer I know yesterday on the journey home. He's PHD educated and is pretty high up one of the large Dublin based firms. He is also extremely sceptical if anything that isn't a concrete block cavity wall. I mentioned that the Polarwall system has a BRE certificate. At that he changed his tune completely, he reckoned the BRE are very reputable. Alot more so than the IAB for example.
However, something that did annoy me on my visit with Polarwall. They mentioned that it was BRE certified to me also. If you read the cert though it is certified if there is an outer leaf of blockwork separated from the polarwall by a cavity, making it very similar to a regular cavity wall.
Polarwall were selling the system based on it being finished externally with one of the available plastering systems. The extra leaf of block work would push up the price of the build and introduce further complications based on the depth of reveals on the house I'd imagine.
At the self build show in punchestown 2 weeks ago I spoke to Facade Systems who are now giving a 10 years guarantee on their renders when used on ICF type builds.
Hope this is of use. Is there anyone out there actually living in an ICF house?
As regards how good the systems are, I was discussing this with an engineer I know yesterday on the journey home. He's PHD educated and is pretty high up one of the large Dublin based firms. He is also extremely sceptical if anything that isn't a concrete block cavity wall. I mentioned that the Polarwall system has a BRE certificate. At that he changed his tune completely, he reckoned the BRE are very reputable. Alot more so than the IAB for example.
However, something that did annoy me on my visit with Polarwall. They mentioned that it was BRE certified to me also. If you read the cert though it is certified if there is an outer leaf of blockwork separated from the polarwall by a cavity, making it very similar to a regular cavity wall.
Polarwall were selling the system based on it being finished externally with one of the available plastering systems. The extra leaf of block work would push up the price of the build and introduce further complications based on the depth of reveals on the house I'd imagine.
At the self build show in punchestown 2 weeks ago I spoke to Facade Systems who are now giving a 10 years guarantee on their renders when used on ICF type builds.
Hope this is of use. Is there anyone out there actually living in an ICF house?
Hi Sas,
I'm considering using Euromac for my house, have been out to view one of theirs currently under constuction. Any comments on how you found the Euromac system??
Cheers, bats
I have no expertise in house building or ICF but I can give you my impressions on the systems I've seen while trying to decide on a build type for my own house i.e. polarwall & euromac.
The Euromac system has the EOTA certification which is good if you have an architect willing to look beyond the IAB certs.
Euromac has a BRE certificate which is more relevant to Ireland but only if you build the wall like cavity wall, i.e. with a masonry wall outer leaf. That is not how polarwall sold the system to me. The sheer depth of the wall on that basis would have expensive implications for your foundations.
Euromac push alot more on you than polarwall.
For example, polarwall build the external wall of your house, full stop. Internal load bearing walls are standard block walls. For the first story floor you can use hollow core slabs. The roof is up to you to sort out also.
Euromac build the external and all internal load bearing ( and in one house I've seen non load bearing) walls. They also are pushy about you using their first floor system and roofing system. They also tried to sell me windows, doors and fireplace systems.
Euromac also don't talk in any great technical detail about their product. I've spoke to a guy on another forum that has actually built with them. He is very happy with the build but 2 things did annoy him. 1, the original builder recommended to him by Euromac was apparently very dodgy when his work was looked into, and 2, the lack of technical support from Euromac. You ahve to depend on your builder heavily.
Another thing that I found a little off putting was the Euromac were dictating that you are wasting your money if you go for anything other than their +2 product. I think this gives an overall U-value of 0.2. This is good but not good enough for me if I'm going for an alternative system. They didn't mention the term passive house in the 2 hours I was with them.
Polawall can do a wall with a U-Value down to 0.11 and he did speak about passive houses. He also said that if I was to insist on having an open fire then he'd only sell me his cheapest system because I'd be wasting my money otherwise. Sounded harsh but at least he was straight with me.
Polarwall come out themselves to build the system, Euromac sell you the materials and recommend a builder to you and off you go.
Also, I felt that the EPS polystyrene Euromac use is considerably softer than the XPS polarwall use. I've done a "kick" test on both. However, once you plaster either type they are very hard to the touch.
The one thing about Euromac and most of the other systems versus polarwall is that the walls are supplied as components that are manufactured and just fitted together.
The polarwall product comes in parts. i.e. blocks of polystyrene for the internal wall face, block of polystyrene for the external walls face and the rail system that they use to hold the 2 faces together. The fact that the outer face is separated by the H-Rail between each layer of the wall suggested to me that there is a risk of a cold bridge forming. This is purely a personal theory of mine though.
Euromac is poured 1 full storey at a time which seems a better idea than the layering that Polarwall do. Polarwall do pour the a full storey in a day but they do several runs around the wall as opposed to Euromac who start in 1 corner and work around the house once to that same corner.
I don't like the fact that the fixing of slabs to the internals walls is a dab and slab effort in Euromac houses. I'd prefer the mechanical fixing that is possible with polarwall.
Thats about all I can think of.
SAS
randompunter
Registered User
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bluebell,
how's that house going with that eurozone system? I have looked at a few of the different systems myself for my house and liked that one too. They seem to have more options that some of the others like those ICF floors. Still haven't made up my mind fully, want to see some of them on site first.
how's that house going with that eurozone system? I have looked at a few of the different systems myself for my house and liked that one too. They seem to have more options that some of the others like those ICF floors. Still haven't made up my mind fully, want to see some of them on site first.
Good research there SAS.... how does the polar wall fixing allow for attaching slabs on the inside...many of the different ICF systems (except Euromac), allow you to mechanically attach by driving a screw in through the slab on into the EPS. There are plastic 'rails' (for want of a better word!), that the screws go through.... now that does not look very apparent to me on the polarwall system.
You can se these rails easily enough on the [broken link removed] & [broken link removed] systems if you see what I mean
ninsaga
You can se these rails easily enough on the [broken link removed] & [broken link removed] systems if you see what I mean
ninsaga
randompunter
Registered User
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- 14
Sas are all the systems only certified with an external leaf of block?
Randompunter,
the house is going well, they poured the ground floor and the floor upstairs last saturday.... he is really impressed by it. obviously there are a number of things he would do differently on the next house but it is a system of trial and error. they are pouring the 1st floor on monday i think. the house is in the southeast if you are interested in seeing on of them pm me and i'll pass on his contact details to you.
the house is going well, they poured the ground floor and the floor upstairs last saturday.... he is really impressed by it. obviously there are a number of things he would do differently on the next house but it is a system of trial and error. they are pouring the 1st floor on monday i think. the house is in the southeast if you are interested in seeing on of them pm me and i'll pass on his contact details to you.
There are horizontal plastic rails running on the internal surface of the system about 1 - 1.5 feet apart.
See [broken link removed]
None of the systems to the best of my knowledge have Irish certification which means you will have trouble getting any regular architect to sign off on them. This is my experience based on discussions with 3 separate firms when I was in the market for an architect.
The polarwall cert is here if you are interested
http://www.brecertification.co.uk/pdf/111-04.pdf#search="Polarwall BRE"
Its straight forward enough reading.
I can't remember anything from my reading of the Euromac one. Will look at it later.
My big worry is that I've heard stories of the finishing systems simply failing i.e. falling off the wall.
On the other hand I spoke to Facade Systems at the self build show 2 weeks ago and the sales guy told me ( just after I saw him chatting with Rod from polarwall) that they are now prepared to give a 10 years guarantee on specific systems when used on ICF.
Not to side track ...but as I see it mentioned here, I think it important to ask. SAS, you are referring to BRE certification.
What is the diff between EOTA, BBA & BRE certification & their recognition within Ireland? In terms of certification are they equal to, better or worse than say Homebond or Premier?
Diff systems have diff certifications..... a few as follows.
- Reward Walls, that they are BBA (with some refs to Ireland use)
- Beco Wallform (who are not operating in Ireland I think) are BRE certified
- Euromac are EOTA
- Styrostone are BBA
- couldn't find anything for Integrespec or Eco-form
ninsaga
What is the diff between EOTA, BBA & BRE certification & their recognition within Ireland? In terms of certification are they equal to, better or worse than say Homebond or Premier?
Diff systems have diff certifications..... a few as follows.
- Reward Walls, that they are BBA (with some refs to Ireland use)
- Beco Wallform (who are not operating in Ireland I think) are BRE certified
- Euromac are EOTA
- Styrostone are BBA
- couldn't find anything for Integrespec or Eco-form
ninsaga
randompunter
Registered User
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On the Certs I believe the British Certs are widely accepted in Ireland. I have been told by architects and engineers that they will sign off on BBA certs in the same way as they would with IAB certs.
Hi Bluebell,
have just tried looking up Eurozone on the net.....not much luck
Don't suppose you have their contact details??
Cheers, Bats
C
caro-line
Guest
Another provider of ICF here in Ireland are
http://www.amvicireland.com/
http://www.amvicireland.com/
I have limited knowledge in this to be honest. But here's what I under the situation is.
Homebond and PremierGuarantee are insurance companies. They don't certify building technologies. However, given that they are in the business of making money and if they are
willing to provide cover for a specific build type then it must be a good sign. Euromac can be covered by premierguarantee for example although I have no idea how either works
in the case of a direct labour build for example.
The Irish equivalent to the BBA is the IAB ([broken link removed]). They (allegedly) have the expertise to test and certify all types of elements of the build.
The BRE is the British Research Establishment. I have no idea where they sit in relation to the BBA.
I don't know much about the EOTA.
This link to an article in the latest edition of constructireland answers some of your questions I think.
[broken link removed]
I would have thought so but I've spoken to 3 firms (all architectural technicians\technologists) and none of them were interested in any cert other than the IAB. I put forward the case
that the BBA has to be good enough\equivantlent but they didn't want to know. All 3 tried to convince me that the only way to go is regular block build so that was a bad indication I suppose. Eventually I picked one of them to get me
through planning and I'll get someone else to sign off on the build if needs be. The funny thing was I mentioned poroton blocks(which do have an IAB cert) to 2 of 3 and
they didn't seem terribly happy to build with them either. So if it doesn't have an IAB cert run a mile from it and if it does then that doesn't mean its the way to go. .
2 reasons, neither of which are rooted in anything other than opinion
1. I've spoke to several trades people about it and in general they just think dab and slab is "not a good job". That was when doing it to block walls.
2. My own personal opinion. EPS is not very hard. You are effectively gluing the slab onto something that I don't think is very sturdy to begin with. The combination
of the 2 maybe how it works. I'm sure aesthetically speaking it looks no different. Its just that given the option of dabbing or screwing I'll choose the latter when
I can. Again this is just my personal opinion. My chosen career is software development so that will give you an idea of the depth of my building knowledge
As a complete aside, I spoke to Fernhill stone at the sustainable building show\building exhibition last friday and one of their sales guys mentioned that they are doing some testing with their "stone fronts" on ICF type builds.
He noted that the ICF companies will tell you that all will be well but they are not willing to commit to that without testing it themselves. This is a positive sign I feel because as he put it, the polystyrene external
facing is becoming alot more common and they have to move with the times.
...just read that article..... looks like a right can of worms there
..... that's what I have found also...however I believe that alot of this is down to the fact that this is new to many og them & they just want to rely on what they know works. Its easy for them to cut/paste sections of their cad drawings for block built houses. With regard to poraton .. I checked that out also...it looks to be a good system but there are not to many builders around the place who are experienced with it. It is widely used throughout Europe - even in severely cold climates so it can't be that bad.
ninsaga
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C
clara26
Guest
Sas you pretty much have hit the nail on the head when it comes to certification.
In recent times the Irish Agrement Board have decided that they will not simply rubber stamp a BBA certificate like they once did. This is because our building regulations while very similiar to the UK do differ on a number of issues.
The BRE only did the testing in the past but have resently begun to issue certifcates as well. The BBA and IAB do not recognise their certificates but will recognise their testing. Confused? It seems the BRE promises a faster turn around time on certs at a reduced cost. The problem is not all engineers/architects in the UK will be happy with just BRE certs and will insist on BBA.
The EOTA is a European certificate. If you are an Irish Company and wish to attain an EOTA cert you must contact your Agrement Board who will handle this application. They certify the system and them put an application to the other member states. Essentailly the applcaition is rubber stamped in each country. However this is a very lenghtly process.
In recent times the Irish Agrement Board have decided that they will not simply rubber stamp a BBA certificate like they once did. This is because our building regulations while very similiar to the UK do differ on a number of issues.
The BRE only did the testing in the past but have resently begun to issue certifcates as well. The BBA and IAB do not recognise their certificates but will recognise their testing. Confused? It seems the BRE promises a faster turn around time on certs at a reduced cost. The problem is not all engineers/architects in the UK will be happy with just BRE certs and will insist on BBA.
The EOTA is a European certificate. If you are an Irish Company and wish to attain an EOTA cert you must contact your Agrement Board who will handle this application. They certify the system and them put an application to the other member states. Essentailly the applcaition is rubber stamped in each country. However this is a very lenghtly process.