I am not paying the Household Charge because...

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My problem with the charge is why are council owned houses exempt from the household charge . Do the occupants differ from homeowners will they not be getting the same services as homeowners

people that have worked hard to buy there own homes are being penalised , many occupants of council houses work for a living so why are they exempt.
 
My problem is that I already pay management fees and my estate will never be taken in charge by the council.
 
Council tenant just like all other tenants are not liable to pay this property tax because they dont own the property they live in.

I agree that it is not fair that the Council as landlord is exempt while competing* private sector landlords have to pay the property tax.

I imagine that this exemption will be challenged in the same way as the VAT exemption was for public car parks competing with private car parks.
 
I have re-written this post several times so far because I am trying really hard not to rant. I am so frustrated with politicians and their inability to be truthful on any subject or even to use the words 'yes' or 'no'. I am sickened by the poor management and waste of public finances in this country. Any dealings I have with state or local authorities often results in setting my teeth on edge. I'll not bother with specific examples but I am quite sure that each and everyone of you could quote some horror story of recent dealings with your local council, hospital, Revenue, etc.

Yes I know they are our democratically elected government, but realistically, choices are limited. Parish pump politics and political dynasties are the mainstay of the Irish system. I hate election time but I do vote as I know there are women all over the world who don't have my rights.

My dissatisfaction, no, revulsion, at the waste and cronyism in our society is why I am not paying the charge. It is my means of protest.

Brendan suggested a campaign to encourage payment of the charge on another thread. Brendan, your post suggests that those who do not intend to pay the charge fall into the same category as cheaters and spongers.....

...."Most people I know agree that they should pay their taxes. I do know a few who understate their income and cheat on their taxes, while happy to claim all the state benefits they can."....

I find your comment extremely insulting. Taxation is my job and I take a very strict line on submitting accurate returns. I believe in the necessity of taxes. If you collect VAT and PAYE, etc, not passing it to Revenue is theft In my book. If you make profits, you pay your tax. To suggest that people who take issue with this charge are the type of people who regularly evade taxes and make false welfare claims is a jump to far.

We already pay commercial rates, water rates, bin charges, etc. We need to register our septic tank and who knows, might need to change it even though the council only approved it three years ago.

Despite this, I do not disagree with the concept of a property tax. But that's not what the government will do. Ultimately, the government will still squander money on ridiculous projects, Bertie & Pee will still draw their big pensions, everyone who took retirement on Feb29th will be back on contract and nothing will have changed. For anyone struggling to manage a big mortgage and raise a small family, there is a real fear of what next year's rate could do to their household budget.

Aw......now I do have a headache!
 
headache said:
My dissatisfaction, no, revulsion, at the waste and cronyism in our society is why I am not paying the charge. It is my means of protest.
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Well said headache. We keep pouring good money after bad in this country.
In my area the local authourity are in such "dire" need of money that they spent the last 3 months of 2011 building a bicycle lane on the old N8 between Abbeyleix and Durrow.
And they have the nerve to say they are underfunded!!!
 
I find your comment extremely insulting. Taxation is my job and I take a very strict line on submitting accurate returns. I believe in the necessity of taxes. If you collect VAT and PAYE, etc, not passing it to Revenue is theft In my book. If you make profits, you pay your tax. To suggest that people who take issue with this charge are the type of people who regularly evade taxes and make false welfare claims is a jump to far.
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Why is this tax any different to any other tax when it comes to evasion? Its all money which people are obliged by law to pay? I dont see how not paying this is any different to defrauding Revenue of an equivalent amount of income tax or VAT.

Isnt it more likely that income tax and vat paid into the general taxation pool has a much greater chance of being 'squandered' than a tax that is ring fenced for a particular purpose? Using this logic, you would think dissenters would pay the household charge and not pay other types of taxation.
 
Sounds like we need a thread entitled:

I am paying the Household Charge because...

I would then start with the following points:

-It is the law and non payment is breaking the law, why not pay other forms of taxation if people are so opposed to it, where does the evasion end?
-Despite what people say it is easy to pay, people citing difficulties are using this as an excuse
-Self employed people dont get a "bill" before they pay their taxes it is self assessment system which works well and is used in other countries including the US.
-The money is badly needed to run the country and this system has been agreed with Europe who at the end of the day with Europe we would be completely broke
-Other countries have a lot higher property tax i.e. in the UK, how is this any different. The UK VAT rate is nearly as high as Ireland but they also have much higher council tax, however the effective tax rate for a PAYE employeee is roughly the same!
 
csirl said:
Isnt it more likely that income tax and vat paid into the general taxation pool has a much greater chance of being 'squandered' than a tax that is ring fenced for a particular purpose? Using this logic, you would think dissenters would pay the household charge and not pay other types of taxation.
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Most people have no input around paying income tax, they cant not pay it, its gone out of their wages when they get them. Similar with VAT, you cant really refuse to pay it at the supermarket till otherwise you just wont be sold your goods.

I dont know if the campaign for payment people are being deliberately obtuse about this but its perfectly obvious to me that the way this tax has been set up allows an opportunity for protest that other taxes do not, on a far grander scale. Its simple really.
 
I am not paying the household charge for a number of reasons:

1) The main one is that I live in a totally privately maintained estate, I already pay over €2k annually for bins/landscaping etc- our management company even maintain the small bit at the entrance that does belong to the council as they never have in 7 years!

2) How do they intend to calculate the charge going forward? What plan do they have-will €100 turn into €1k next year?

3) I had a big pay cut 4 yrs ago, have not seen a penny of it back, while my mortgage (PTSB- now SVR!!), & all other living costs keep going up! After the extra levys and taxes etc I am just about getting by- so I feel that I contribute enough!

4) Frustration at council propertys being excluded- why? Any people I know in council properties work ?

5) Frustration at OAP's who have contributed all their lives and now regardless of their means have to pay it!!
 
I'm not paying because ...

...we would be setting ourselves up for and accepting the future property tax which we have no idea how its going to be calculated ... guaranteed it wont be designed in a fair way , it cant be because to do so would be to grant relief to : Neg equity property owners , Stamp Duty Payers , Unemployed, pensioners, low incomers ... net result = little to no tax payable... they wont do that.

Simply ; Property tax is wrong , its a case of moving the goalpost after the ball has been kicked ..."Not Fair" You buy your house in the belief that once you'd paid you mortgage its yours ...not if property tax is allowed in ... Dont pay and remember they politicians who tried to impose it on you at the next election, better still e-mail them now and let them know they wont be getting your vote ever again if the presist with implementing a property tax.
 
ajapale said:
Council tenant just like all other tenants are not liable to pay this property tax because they dont own the property they live in.

I agree that it is not fair that the Council as landlord is exempt while competing* private sector landlords have to pay the property tax.

I imagine that this exemption will be challenged in the same way as the VAT exemption was for public car parks competing with private car parks.
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I agree with some type of property tax and not one where everyone pays the same. But I would like to see evidence that the money is being used in the areas it is paid.

I live in an 8 year old small estate, we have no street lights, council haven't 'taken over' estate, we pay an accountant fee as we had to take over the management of the estate. Was told on phone by council that if the access road to estate was damaged that we as residents would have to pay the repair.
Why should I pay a household tax?

I will pay it when bin collection are included, the council 'take over' the estate, and I have to stop paying accountancy fees.

The politicians should stop comparing this to the UK council tax, there most services are included in the charge.
Here we still have private companies charging for bins, recycling etc.

Also it should be payed by the occupant and not the owner.
Its too black and white.

The system was a mess then and is a mess now.
The payment of 100 euros isn't going to change that.

Its all too similar to paying yearly NCT for over 10 year old cars( therefore twice the charge as for newer cars), motor tax on older cars (based on engine size) generally more expensive then newer cars.

Its another tax on the regular joe.
 
bazermc said:
Sounds like we need a thread entitled:

I am paying the Household Charge because...

-Other countries have a lot higher property tax i.e. in the UK, how is this any different. The UK VAT rate is nearly as high as Ireland but they also have much higher council tax, however the effective tax rate for a PAYE employeee is roughly the same!
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It makes me furious when this is brought up.
Yes, other countries pay council taxes (or whatever you want to call them). However, in exchange for those taxes they receive excellent infrastructure (good roads, public transport network etc.), public lighting, their refuse is collected etc.
Also, most other countries have a car registration tax (my uncle in wales pays £30 per year for this currently) instead of motor tax like we have here.
They don't have to fork out €60 every time they need to visit a Doctor and then get charged exorbitant prices in a pharmacy for a prescription!

My car tax alone is €630 per year. My refuse collection costs in excess of €400 per year. Yet when they introduce said property tax/council tax I will still have to pay those other taxes.
I live outside of Dublin and the public transport is non-existent and there are so many poorly maintained roads it is a joke.

I am not against a property/council tax per se.....I would just like it to be fair on regular people like us. Also, I would like to see that they do indeed ring-fence this money for its intended use. We all know it's going into the big black hole which is another big problem I have with this charge.
 
Questions for those who cite living in an estate that is not taken into charge:

Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure? Why should I pay for this mistake? If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded? Surely it goes without saying that all housing estates should be finished before they are handed over to a council? Its not for the council to do the developers job. If they are not finished, then surely this is something between the occupiers and the developer/management company? I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations. I've already bailed out enough dodgy property via my tax contributions/NAMA.
 
csirl said:
Questions for those who cite living in an estate that is not taken into charge:

Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure? Why should I pay for this mistake? If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded? Surely it goes without saying that all housing estates should be finished before they are handed over to a council? Its not for the council to do the developers job. If they are not finished, then surely this is something between the occupiers and the developer/management company? I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations. I've already bailed out enough dodgy property via my tax contributions/NAMA.
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The issue (for me) is not that a private estate has been left without proper infrastructure - my estate is privately managed, has properly finished infrastructure and it was never intended to be handed over to the council. The issue is that I do not want to pay for services twice. I already pay management fees that cover road maintenance, pavement maintenance, landscaping, grass cutting, bins, street lighting, etc.
 
I don't see why people who live in housing estates have an issue with paying for services that are "paid for "twice".

I pay for my bins ( I share mine with my immediate neighbor to cut costs by 50 % - €160.

I pay my annual residents' fee - €100

The lighting (street lighting) is definitely covered by the county council. I know this because the light outside my house was not working and I rang and it was fixed within 2 days.

I pay my house insurance.


I pay for my house maintenance - house painting and maintenance when required.


I service my boiler at an annual cost of €80.

These are the costs of owning property or a home.

What do they have to do with the local authority?

I still say that I would prefer not to pay any of the above and the additional household charge but who will pay for these services that I am obliged to pay for of if nobody does?


Marion
 
Marion said:
I don't see why people who live in housing estates have an issue with paying for services that are "paid for "twice".
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I dont see your point, I pay for everything you have mentioned as well, and on top of all of that I pay a management fee because my estate is privately managed. So I have already paid for the management of my estate, and the council do not have and never will have any involvement. So why would I pay twice for services I receive once?
 
My point is that services outside of where we actually live are provided or should be provided by the Local Authority and should be paid for by those who live in the broader community.


Parks
Libraries
Playgrounds
Street lighting
Road maintenance
Salting roads in icy weather
Clean up weeks
Organized art week
Bycicle lanes


I'm sure to have not included a pile of stuff.

Marion
 
Marion said:
My point is that services outside of where we actually live are provided or should be provided by the Local Authority and should be paid for by those who live in the broader community.


Parks
Libraries
Playgrounds
Street lighting
Road maintenance
Salting roads in icy weather
Clean up weeks
Organized art week
Bycicle lanes


I'm sure to have not included a pile of stuff.

Marion
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What was paying for all of this before the household charge? Oh yes, the 170 million budget cut to the local authorities, which is going to plug some black hole of debt.

How is it fair that I pay for all of the above - some of which do and some of which dont exist in my broader community, and the street of council tenants around the corner do not?

Our bike lanes are so full of holes, weeds, glass and abrupt stops that they are unusable. We got no salting in the area when it was icy and many residents were trapped in estates where I live. Ive never heard of an organised art week locally, certainly not one paid for by the council. I dont have a playground or library locally, although I could drive to one, but if you work normal hours its impossible to use the library. Street lighting is not maintained well in the area either. And I live in Dublin.

Rural dwellers get none of the above.
 
Rural dwellers get

Libraries in their local towns

Lighting on main roads

Playgrounds in local towns

Salted main roads to towns

If people choose to live outside of main urban areas that is their choice and there is a cost to having the privilege to doing this.


Marion
 
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