How many landlords have quit because of rent controls?

[TheBigShort]

The 250k figure is indeed incorrect, Dublin City Council spend an average of €330k per unit excluding land costs.

That's cool Leo, im happy to go with that. Others have speculated different amounts elsewhere.
In the end the State is funding housing for people with low incomes or even no incomes. People who earn, on the face of it, decent incomes are being squeezed.
Im simply proposing a scheme that facilitates hard-pressed working people an alternative to extortionate rents, massive mortgages, or having to do three/four round trips to and from work.
Anyone would think that im the bad guy around here!

 

[AlbacoreA]

So it basically fluctuates and the trajectory is that more landlords are entering the sector than leaving.

Nope overall down by 36,000 with a population increase of almost 200k.

Even if what you said was true, (which it isn't, unless you take a small sample out of context) it still hasn't a hope of keeping up with the increase in population/demand.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Questions about the stuff that ive left out, but questions that you have left out too?

I don't proclaim to dot every i or cross every t on the pages of AAM. This is merely a concept. If there is a fundamental reason why it cant be done I would be happy to hear it.

Your concepts are missing fundamentals. That's whats wrong with them. You just ignore that.

I wouldn't be able to do that but the State could....

Its not an issue of the state not being able to do something, the issue its its not willing to do anything.
Outsourcing social housing is basically a cost saving policy, as it runs at a loss. Outsourcing was a means for the state to minimise the cost of it.
It also moved a lot of the financial risk from the State to the LL. Which is again is cost saving.

You're not willing to do it, the state isn't and neither are LL's. Your ideas ignore that basic reality.

The state could structure it to make it less risky to make a modest profit.
However they are doing the opposite, so consistently it has to be policy, perhaps unofficial. Its either that or they are inept. Which is unlikely.
I assume it was to encourage investment into the country after the crash, and no one wants to bee seen to put brakes on the runaway train its become.

 

[TheBigShort]

Nope overall down by 36,000 with a population increase of almost 200k.

What are you talking about? You are referencing a period of time when rent control didn't even exist! Read the topic title again....how many landlords have quit because of rent controls!

Rent controls were introduced in 2016....by the figures your have referenced, 1000 additional landlords have entered the sector since then!

 

[losttheplot]

We'd need to know the figures for landlords in RPZs. Otherwise it's an argument about numbers that aren't relevant anyway.

 

[TheBigShort]

Fair point @losttheplot .
We are 12 pages into this thread and nobody has produced anything of substance to support the OP views.
I was accused of derailing what could have been an interesting topic. Instead I was just killing time!

 

[HollyBud]

Guilty as accused!

 

[AlbacoreA]

What are you talking about? You are referencing a period of time when rent control didn't even exist! Read the topic title again....how many landlords have quit because of rent controls!

Rent controls were introduced in 2016....by the figures your have referenced, 1000 additional landlords have entered the sector since then!

I was referring to your "trajectory" comment.

Theres 36k down, at 1K per year its going to take a long time to get those numbers back.
Thats before you factor 200k extra population.
Also the new LL are coming and setting high rents. Those leaving are taking the cheaper rents with them.
1k new landlords is woeful.

The only figures you should really be interested is availability of rentals and if rent is increasing.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/rent-house-dublin-15040643

Its amazing though in the worst housng crisis in the history of the state, perhaps in europe and there are no metrics to see whats happening. Its like they don't care.

 

[losttheplot]

Shouldn't the RTB have this information, or at least a reasonable amount of data to estimate it.

 

[TheBigShort]

1k new landlords is woeful.

You are suggesting we need more LL's?
We don't, we need more houses.
Someone mentioned 100,000 more houses.
If 170,000 LL's exited the market, property prices would fall and become alot more affordable for those looking to buy.

 

[AlbacoreA]

I'm suggesting its doesn't come any where close to providing the rental properties needed.

 

[The Horseman]

You are suggesting we need more LL's?
We don't, we need more houses.
Someone mentioned 100,000 more houses.
If 170,000 LL's exited the market, property prices would fall and become alot more affordable for those looking to buy.

Where do the tenants who leave these properties go. By selling these properties the number of bed spaces available will decrease. I have posed this question to you on a number of occasions in the past and yet you still want landlords out.

Everybody accepts that supply of property needs to increase but making blunt anti landlord statements does not actually improve the situation. You appear unwilling to accept that the sector needs landlords whether you like it or not and that these same landlords are treating this as a business.

Unless you get everybody in the world to adopt a socialist position you are not going to get prices down no matter how much you want to. We have to import the raw materials to build properties and like it or not there are a lot of capitalists who want to make the biggest profit they can. So there are external factors which you can't control no matter how much you want to!

 

[AlbacoreA]

....
If 170,000 LL's exited the market, property prices would fall and become alot more affordable for those looking to buy.

Lots did leave, and its till 36k short of what is was. Doesn't seem to have the effect you're hoping for.

Why are builders not filling the shortfall, and are they and the Reit building what is needed?

...potential delivery of about 21,000 new homes in 2018.
It is generally accepted that this figure amounts to less than half of what is actually required to meet demand and population growth expectations.
The drip feed of new homes to the market will improve slightly this year but the flow that’s needed to service a normal, functioning property market is still not there. While last year saw new homes sales across 100 sites, the volume of units being released to the market remains low. ...

With apartments accounting for just 12 per cent of all our housing stock, progress to increase housing density in line with our EU neighbours (the EU average is 50 per cent) is slow. Availability of land for development is an inhibiting factor, and it was envisaged the vacant site levy might address this. However the failure by two Dublin local authorities to list any properties on the register of vacant sites set up a year ago is indicative of a lack of will to enforce the levy on property owners who fail to develop prime housing land.

Meanwhile some of the most ambitious developments in prime locations around the city are by real estate funds operating managed rental blocks. Kennedy Wilson, Hines and IRES Reit are just three of the major investment funds mopping up much of the exciting large-scale development in the city currently. Much of the development is for offices rather than apartments, and the residential units will be primarily only available to rent.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...w-home-in-2018-here-s-what-s-coming-1.3365974

 

[TheBigShort]

Where do the tenants who leave these properties go.

If they can afford to pay the rent they will have no problem paying for a mortgage on properties with lower prices.

I wasn't advocating that it would solve the housing crisis, but I do think having LL's competing with FTB's is part of the problem.
If LL could actually offer a rental market that competes with the cost of mortgages that would be great. But they dont, the rents are often more costly than the mortgages. Forcing grown adults to share with others for far longer than they would ordinarily desire, impacting on families etc.

 

[TheBigShort]

Lots did leave, and its till 36k short of what is was. Doesn't seem to have the effect you're hoping for.

It did actually. House prices fell in tandem with LL exiting the market an exposing the surplus build. As LL re-enter, house prices and rents have started to rise again.

 

[The Horseman]

If they can afford to pay the rent they will have no problem paying for a mortgage on properties with lower prices.

I wasn't advocating that it would solve the housing crisis, but I do think having LL's competing with FTB's is part of the problem.
If LL could actually offer a rental market that competes with the cost of mortgages that would be great. But they dont, the rents are often more costly than the mortgages. Forcing grown adults to share with others for far longer than they would ordinarily desire, impacting on families etc.

Why should an investor not be allowed compete with FTB's. You are veering towards a communist agenda where the State wants to control sectors of society. At that point then should single people be allowed own two or three bed properties, should single people be allowed buy family cars?

If people have the means to buy property/cars etc then they should be allowed irrespective if they are investors or FTB's etc.

 

[AlbacoreA]

It did actually. House prices fell in tandem with LL exiting the market an exposing the surplus build. As LL re-enter, house prices and rents have started to rise again.

It wasn't LL leaving that caused that, it was the banking crisis. LL are a symptom not a cause.

 

[Firefly]

You are veering towards a communist agenda where the State wants to control sectors of society. At that point then should single people be allowed own two or three bed properties, should single people be allowed buy family cars?

You would think that, but in fact, the man is a blue blooded capitalist!!!

 

[TheBigShort]

Why should an investor not be allowed compete with FTB's

Im not saying they shouldn't, as long the net result is that a LL can offer an alternative market to the tenant offering competitive prices. They dont.
Instead it is quite often more expensive to rent than it is to own a property.

A €250,000 mortgage over 30yrs costs circa €1,000 to repay.
A property valued at €250,000 in D6 will cost nearly twice that to rent.
All over the country, in general, the rental prices exceed the cost of a mortgage on the property. This is because of the way the sector is structured - basically LL's take out 25-30yr mortgage and charge rental that covers that mortgage plus profit plus realising ALL capital appreciation.
The tenant(s) basically pay for the house for the LL to capitalize on.
There is nothing free-market, entrepreneurial about exploiting the need of people to have a roof over their heads in order to capitalize 100% on the sale of the property.
It is an unsustainable ponzi type scheme.
I have already outlined one proposal to help resolve the issue. Another proposal would be to award the tenant an incremental % ownership of the property for each payment.
If the property has 360 monthly repayments and the tenant pays all, and the rent is equal to the mortgage repayments, then when mortgage is paid in full, tenant is 50% co-owner of property.
So any re-sale, the tenant gets something back.
If LL wants to keep majority stakehold, then reduce the rents.

 

[AlbacoreA]

I remember when rents were cheaper than mortgages and all the forums were full of talk of rent being dead money. Also remember when interest rates were 8~12% and some will remember them higher than that.

All during that time there where LL. There was not a shortage of housing though.