An important point though is that our interests converged with the UK on issues where otherwise we did not have many other in our camp, or no one with the heft of the UK.
On farm subsidies, euro, there was France and others.
"How Ireland's stock in the EU has fallen"
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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On farm subsidies, euro, there was France and others.
Dr Strangelove
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Like what?
Taxation.
Taxation
The setup of our justice system
UK weren't keen on any EU army, other big EU players were
I can imagine there must be alot of raised eyebrows around Europe regarding ireland with its massive corporation tax surpluses from us multinationals and spending virtually nothing on defence and wide open to russian interference. Also the fact that ukraine is fighting for its survival against an Imperialistic aggressive power just like we were a century ago and we haven't saw fit to donate some of that to ukraine.
Also the powers that be here are fixated on Israel and gaza when ukraine as a european country fighting for its very survival is the more important and more relevant war for ireland being an eu country
Sophrosyne
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We are EU citizens: not The Borg.
We have different cultures, economies and priorities.
Whatever you think about it, Ireland's military neutrality must be respected rather than reviled by the EU and it generally is respected.
Ireland and the UK had similar views regarding the principle of subsidiarity in the shaping of EU policy, since we are both peripheral countries.
The EU is not a paragon – remember the “butter mountains and wine lakes”.
It muddles through by negotiation. Some EU groups, such as the EPP, being more powerful than others.
Every EU country gets criticized for one thing or another at different times.
Whether, according to some, Ireland’s “stock” in the EU has fallen makes little difference as we never had much “stock” to begin with.
We have different cultures, economies and priorities.
Whatever you think about it, Ireland's military neutrality must be respected rather than reviled by the EU and it generally is respected.
Ireland and the UK had similar views regarding the principle of subsidiarity in the shaping of EU policy, since we are both peripheral countries.
The EU is not a paragon – remember the “butter mountains and wine lakes”.
It muddles through by negotiation. Some EU groups, such as the EPP, being more powerful than others.
Every EU country gets criticized for one thing or another at different times.
Whether, according to some, Ireland’s “stock” in the EU has fallen makes little difference as we never had much “stock” to begin with.
Things have changed wrt neutrality though. Before Sweden and Finland were serious neutral countries.
And let's be honest, our neutrality is not serious like theirs was, given we realistically depend on the UK for air incidents.
So now, Sweden and Finland are no longer voices for serious neutrality within the EU - the UK not being in the EU either puts us as more of an outlier.
The cooperation extended to much more than the headline issues to which you refer.
Across all the various Directorates, there are countless working groups at which the UK and Ireland have been like-minded and cooperated very well.
At official level (the at which level most policy positions are formulated), there was definitely a tendency for the bigger states to bully the smaller ones and having a major player like the UK to counter this was a definite plus for Ireland.
They are definitely missed.
Dr Strangelove
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Such as?
I’m not saying that UK and Irish interests never aligned, nor that it wasn’t easier to make alliances with a culturally familiar neighbour. But people disagreeing with me are struggling to give tangible examples.
People tend to forget that the UK was often at odds with France and Germany on the very big issues like State aid/competition, single currency, free movement of people, and agriculture.
Exactly and I'd say the next government will have huge decisions to make regarding our defence posture. Now that the EU has a defence minister this is going to become a huge factor with regard to EU membership. With the threat to the east of the EU from Russia and the entry of ukraine to the EU in the future the Eastern countries will be pushing for much more cooperation regarding defence . They have much more power and influence in Europe now since they were proven correct with the Russian invasion and the exit of the UK
Of course ireland will take the default strategy of trying to opt out of all this European defence stuff. But then we really are on our own. What are we going to do then form a defence pact with the UK? The UK will see our weak position and will look for access to ports and airports etc and will demand a huge increase in defence capability of the Irish army. I doubt the US will come to our aid either as they were never in favour of irish neutrality anyway and have long thought that ireland needs to be in nato
I think other EU countries would be more willing to put up with our selfishness, cowardice and hypocrisy if a few of our leaders dialled down the blustering bombastic moralistic pontifications. We're like the Catholic Church giving a lecture to parents on child welfare.
Well I hoping to spare everyone but if you insist….
Here’s a bunch of EU Directives that resulted from tedious working party discussions over the years. In addition to all the headline stuff, they include such riveting topics as “airborne noise emitted by household appliances” and “transportable pressure equipment”. Important issues granted, but they never made the 6.1 news.
Take your pick.
List of European Union directives - Wikipedia
I’m being facetious but the working groups that sat in advance of these Directives included representatives of all EU member states. Where Ireland had a policy position that may have conflicted with the bigger EU members, the UK was often a strong and welcome supporter.
I'll put it another way, the UK leaving the EU has made it more likely that Ireland will find itself isolated on major policy decisions without a big EU player in our corner, or any significant support. We didn't agree with the UK on everything, but on the things we disagreed with them I'm guessing we were normally more in line with EU majority view.
Dr Strangelove
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I'm reminded of the Hitchens quote “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”
Such as?
@Salvadore is correct that the vast majority of EU policy is ironed out at working party level but member states can and do retain the right to vote against a proposal at Council level. Here is an academic study which looks at EU-15 voting patterns 1995-2010 at Council - it shows Ireland voted almost as much in opposition as possible to the UK as possible when you look at all the issues! The UK was closest to Denmark, Sweden, and the Netherlands which does not surprise me.
It's more likely that Ireland will become isolated on EU policy decisions because we have increasingly become quasi-eurosceptic, i.e. take the benefits but are less than enthusiastic in compliance with EU obligations, particularly those we don't like (e.g. particularly the common foreign and security policy).
For example, the EC has initiated 5 new infringement actions against Ireland for possible breach of EU rules, including public procurement. European Commission opens 5 infringement procedures against Ireland . There are also failures of Ireland to transpose correctly or not transpose EU directives into Irish law, including anti-money laundering European Commission calls on Ireland to correctly transpose the 5th Anti-Money Laundering Directive ; consumer protection European Commission continues two infringement procedures against Ireland in the field of consumer protection - European Commission ; Trans-European transport; emissions, etc. Ireland warned on EU money-laundering rules transposition.
This indicates the rather cavalier attitude adopted by Ireland towards its obligations under the EU treaties and a failure of central government to actively implement EU directives and regulations. Ireland is all for the benefits of EU membership but regard compliance with EU law as a bit of a burden; seek derogations where it suits us; and does not contribute significantly to the common foreign and security policy .Maria Walsh: Some EU member states believe Ireland is a defence 'freeloader'.
@Dr Strangelove your stats won't show up the issues that never came to a vote, because it was known the UK would have vetoed it.
Think you would need to see a list of what other countries have had infringement actions against them ?
I don't detect any change in attitude from government.
Does it show a cavalier attitude or a quasi-eurosceptic attitude? OR does it show that the obligations are becoming more onerous and this state is somewhat dysfunctional at delivery.
I think the latter.
Probably both.
The UK was against tax harmonisation, as is the Netherlands and Luxembourg, the other two tax havens still with in the EU (besides us). The UK, the biggest tax haven in the world, was the third big player in the club and it was also against it. Tax and defence are the big issues. We should stay in line and nod along on everything else, be the good boys in the class. Maybe even act like adults when it comes to defence, but make a fuss about taxation.
I’m reminded of the Vietnam vet quote “you don’t know man, you weren’t there!”.
As someone who has had responsibility in the past for the transposition into law of a couple of EU Directives, may I just say that any failure to transpose within an EU-imposed deadline is not due to any lack of will at official level. Within government departments, there is a requirement for monthly updates with explanations required for any anticipated delay.
Failure to comply with deadlines is usually the result of the slow legislative process, lobbying from often competing affected stakeholders and often an unreasonable deadline in the first place. Political will also has an influence.
Important to point out that Ireland is by no means unique in this regard although the bigger member states with a larger civil service are generally better equipped to do the necessary to comply with the deadline (which they may also have been responsible for setting in the first instance).