Heat pump for older homes

[Clonback]

After bringing our 1950s home up to A3 standard with a gas combi boiler, our annual gas bill is now in the region of €500 (110m2 terraced house).
It seems like madness to me to go and spend €10k-€12k on a heat pump to try and save a percentage of that €500 per annum. The payback period will be something like 20 years?

You must be using nearly no gas when you subtract VAT,Carbon tax and standing charges.The combi boiler makes great sense when your hot water needs are low.
In your case heat pumps would make no economic sense.The only issue going forward is carbon tax on fossil fuels is going one way but you use so little it makes no difference.

 

[fayf]

After bringing our 1950s home up to A3 standard with a gas combi boiler, our annual gas bill is now in the region of €500 (110m2 terraced house).
It seems like madness to me to go and spend €10k-€12k on a heat pump to try and save a percentage of that €500 per annum. The payback period will be something like 20 years?

You have to do the maths alright, it definitely depends on circumstances, house type, current BER, running costs, payback & grants available. It does not make sense in many situations, but it does in others.

But there is also “comfort factor” which you can’t really monetise the value of that.

I have a 27 year old boiler, which will have to replaced soon, i checked a new condenser boiler but its about 4 k, & i won’t get any grants. Our windows are quite draughty, also 27 years old.

all new triple glazed windows (uv value of 1)and 2 new doors + heat pump, is coming in at roughly 24k, but grants are almost 15k, so it makes more sense for me.

Going the SEAI “One Stop Shop” route, my understanding, is the following are the applicable grants for me:

Full Window Upgrade €4,000
Front & Back Door(800 each) €1,600
Heat Pump €6,500
Heating Controls €700
Bonus to reach B2 Ber €2,000

One Stop Shop Service

A complete home energy upgrade solution for homeowners. Find out more.

www.seai.ie

 

[Micks'r]

If you are venterlating the house, you must have air in to replace it which will be cold air, so there is no such thing as a sealed house
The only alternative that I can think of is an extractor system that has a heat exchanger to heat the incoming air from the extracted air, this would control the house at positive pressure to prevent damp air entering the house

There are several methods to adequately ventilate a house and the most appropriate one is often a function of house type, air tightness level & layout.
Tbh, I'm not sure what you are trying to say exactly but to clarify one point; external (cold) air coming into a house from outside during the heating season will always be dryer in absolute terms than the air leaving the house.

 

[Alkers86]

You have to do the maths alright, it definitely depends on circumstances, house type, current BER, running costs, payback & grants available. It does not make sense in many situations, but it does in others.

But there is also “comfort factor” which you can’t really monetise the value of that.

I have a 27 year old boiler, which will have to replaced soon, i checked a new condenser boiler but its about 4 k, & i won’t get any grants. Our windows are quite draughty, also 27 years old.

all new triple glazed windows (uv value of 1)and 2 new doors + heat pump, is coming in at roughly 24k, but grants are almost 15k, so it makes more sense for me.

Going the SEAI “One Stop Shop” route, my understanding, is the following are the applicable grants for me:

Full Window Upgrade €4,000
Front & Back Door(800 each) €1,600
Heat Pump €6,500
Heating Controls €700
Bonus to reach B2 Ber €2,000

One Stop Shop Service

A complete home energy upgrade solution for homeowners. Find out more.

www.seai.ie

I would be very concerned in that situatuon that you will end up with a very large electricity bill when the heat pump is installeed. What is your current BER? What sort of a house is it?

 

[Browneyedgirl4]

After bringing our 1950s home up to A3 standard with a gas combi boiler, our annual gas bill is now in the region of €500 (110m2 terraced house).
It seems like madness to me to go and spend €10k-€12k on a heat pump to try and save a percentage of that €500 per annum. The payback period will be something like 20 years?

Can I ask what measures you took to bring it up A3?

 

[fayf]

Its C3, a detached house, was D originally, but crept up after solar panels installed, walls pumped, and attic insulation in 2010, have since gotten additional insulation in the attic space, to bring it up to the upgraded insulation standard. My gas is relatively low because the solar tubes have been more productive than i ever thought they would be, its about €700 per annum

I would be very concerned in that situatuon that you will end up with a very large electricity bill when the heat pump is installeed. What is your current BER? What sort of a house is it?

 

[Browneyedgirl4]

Its C3, a detached house, was D originally, but crept up after solar panels installed, walls pumped, and attic insulation in 2010, have since gotten additional insulation in the attic space, to bring it up to the upgraded insulation standard. My gas is relatively low because the solar tubes have been more productive than i ever thought they would be, its about €700 per annum

how do the solar panels work....does it save electricity?

 

[noproblem]

As others who are more knowledgeable on all of this have said, this BER mullarkey is very iffy. Much better to know where you're losing heat in a house. We moved into our newly built house in 2005 and I've recently had all my windows and doors properly resealed, and in all cases the opening/closing hinges changed, front door had warped slightly with it's lock almost not working at all, changed lock completely and they "reset" the door, excellent now. French doors had their hinges all changed and fully resealed with proper rubber sealer. The amount of draughts we had gotten used to, so took no notice of the heat that was going out, never mind wind/cold coming in. We hardly ever use the 2 open fireplaces, and have a special cap on both chimneys that is controlled from a chain that comes all the way down the chimney, we can open and close the chimney cap from there. I've only recently had one of the free surveys done with an SEAI man calling out. Nice man, checked my attic insulation, have already had my cavity pumped, and have a chat about how economical it might be for us to do a more thorough retro-fit. There was nothing in the grant for the work I had done with doors/windows. He told me it wouldn't have had any effect on the BER rating in any case. In my simple mind, the methodology for the BER cert is very questionable. BUT, you need it for selling, for grants, etc, etc. I really do believe the powers that be should look at how efficient all those certs are, update them to include all the new, healthy, and very good ways one can have a really cosy house. Anyway, in the end, i'm pencilled in for an upgrade of the attic insulation, 200mm x 105 sq mtrs, and also flooring 35 sq metres of the attic above the new insulation, they also give me a new BER cert when completed. Total I will have to pay after grants, etc is €3500.00, this includes the BER Cert. It was just short of €5000.00 before grants taken out and it included a BER cert @ €300.00. I'm told it will be done inside the next 8 weeks aprox.
Could I have done all this myself a bit cheaper and forget about the grants? Yes, I'm fairly sure I could, but not by enough to make it worth it.
Hope this info helps others.

 

[Monbretia]

This is all very interesting! I have a very draughty house, wouldn't be too bad on the insulation front but it's the draughts getting in especially in dormer conversion and I'm convinced in through those recessed lights too. On the plus side I have no mould/condensation problems

I have a 30 yr old gas boiler, working fine thankfully but can't last forever, it's bulk tank so I have already been told all the pipes from the tank to the boiler will have to changed if I put in a new boiler, they are underground metal at the moment going under a patio too but not allowed apparently for any new work. Thing is though I spend approx 1,200 per annum up to now (with prices rising who knows what it will be in future!) on gas which includes a hob, no clue on area of house in metres but it's approx 2500 sq ft inc attic conversion so I actually don't think that is too expensive, hard to know what amount of that I would save on an upgrade.

Windows are obviously 30 yrs old but I don't fell any draughts in around them and they seem still pretty good, I did have them serviced in case they needed new seals or anything but other than a few broken locks they were fine.

Not sure what I would tackle first to try and make the house heat pump ready if/when necessary, not sure it would be the best option at all, even if I could solve the draught issues I'd have to change all the radiators too I presume which doesn't appeal to me either as they take up enough wall space already plus my radiator cabinets wouldn't fit! I'm not going to dig up the floors for underfloor and end up having to replace flooring.

 

[fayf]

how do the solar panels work....does it save electricity?

My solar panels heat water only, i’d guess at least 80 % of our annual hot water requirement, comes from them, its the main reason, my annual gas bill is relatively low.

Solar PV (Photo Voltaic) are a different type of solar panel, but they generate electricity, but i don’t have those, others may know more about them.

 

[fayf]

“issues I'd have to change all the radiators too I presume which doesn't appeal to me either”

@Monbretia :

A recent quote i got for a heat pump, says most of the 13 existing rads are fine, we have to replace 5 of them, 3 of those are bathroom towel heaters.So it is not nexessarily the case, that there is a high proportion of the cost going on new rads.

Ideally, ground floor insulation would help, but i won’t be doing that, its too big a job, too expensive, and very disruptive.

 

[Leo]

Solar PV (Photo Voltaic) are a different type of solar panel, but they generate electricity, but i don’t have those, others may know more about them.

This is well covered in other threads.

 

[Leo]

There was nothing in the grant for the work I had done with doors/windows. He told me it wouldn't have had any effect on the BER rating in any case. In my simple mind, the methodology for the BER cert is very questionable. BUT, you need it for selling, for grants, etc, etc. I really do believe the powers that be should look at how efficient all those certs are, update them to include all the new, healthy, and very good ways one can have a really cosy house.

There definitely are limitations to the current BER process, assessors basically enter known or estimated values for all the relevant components of the home, U values for windows for instance. The software then calculates the final rating.

What it can't do is measure how well all those components have been installed or maintained over the years. To implement a comprehensive test that would to all you say would mean a test that costs in the thousands. Warts and all, the current test that you can get done for less than €200 makes more sense. More education is likely a good compromise to addressing the shortcomings of the test.

 

[Alkers86]

Can I ask what measures you took to bring it up A3?

Detailed here: https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/estimate-renovation.226008/post-1761307

 

[Hooverfish]

You can do your own room by room heat loss survey at www.heat-engineer.com for the massive sum of £12. Very good software, and an inexpensive way to find out the stuff you need to know. Cross reference the results against your actual energy bills. The best source of information I've found so far is the facebook group Heat Pumps UK and Ireland which has a number of experienced installers who give advice. It's quite a lot better than the similar Irish only group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1432303803563678

 

[Leo]

You can do your own room by room heat loss survey at www.heat-engineer.com for the massive sum of £12.

Are you able to go into U-Value details for the various components and does it account for ventilation or heat loss from air leakage?

I suspect it's similar to the calculators that are widely available for free online such as this or this, but would be interested if it offered more. For instance, the free ones don't tend to consider solar gains.