Has anyone approached Certus (BOSI) about a write down for giving up their tracker?

From BOSIs point of view having loans out to customers at 1.75% or whatever while the money is costing them 4% or whatever means that they are losing money on the deal each year. €2,250 per annum is my estimate. I don't know what the actual cost to BOSI is,( I doubt their own board actually knows) but the €2,250 should not be far off.

Generally banks finance themselves from month to month so the cost to them of your loan varies, it does not matter when you took out the loan. This is a very stupid way for banks to do business as any first year accountancy student could tell them and is the root cause of the crisis, but thats a different discussion.

So if you pay off your loan early the bank saves €2,250 each year, you should expect them to share this saving with you.

The second, separate, question is where will you get the money to pay off the loan, and what will that cost you, i.e. your cost of capital. If you have the money on deposit at 3% then it will cost you €1,250 a year to pay off the loan, so your discount would need to be more than this PER ANNUM.

To work this through with simple figures.

Mortgage 100,000 1 full year left at 2%. Interest cost €2,000

Cash on deposit €100,000 earning 3% interest. Income €3,000

Take the money from the deposit and repay the mortgage. You lose €1,000

BOSI would need to accept an offer of less than €99,000 to settle the loan before you are interested.

Multiply the discount required by each year left on the loan.

This ignores tax. Dirt on deposit interest and tax relief on loan payments if applicable both tend to reduce the amount of discount needed.

In summary €2,000 per €100,000 loan balance per year remaining seems like a good rule of thumb for a discount.

BOSI wants out of Ireland they may be willing to accept less. All the best to anyone trying this and please let us know how it goes.
 
From BOSIs point of view having loans out to customers at 1.75% or whatever while the money is costing them 4% or whatever means that they are losing money on the deal each year. €2,250 per annum is my estimate. I don't know what the actual cost to BOSI is,( I doubt their own board actually knows) but the €2,250 should not be far off.

Generally banks finance themselves from month to month so the cost to them of your loan varies, it does not matter when you took out the loan. This is a very stupid way for banks to do business as any first year accountancy student could tell them and is the root cause of the crisis, but thats a different discussion.

So if you pay off your loan early the bank saves €2,250 each year, you should expect them to share this saving with you.

The second, separate, question is where will you get the money to pay off the loan, and what will that cost you, i.e. your cost of capital. If you have the money on deposit at 3% then it will cost you €1,250 a year to pay off the loan, so your discount would need to be more than this PER ANNUM.

To work this through with simple figures.

Mortgage 100,000 1 full year left at 2%. Interest cost €2,000

Cash on deposit €100,000 earning 3% interest. Income €3,000

Take the money from the deposit and repay the mortgage. You lose €1,000

BOSI would need to accept an offer of less than €99,000 to settle the loan before you are interested.

Multiply the discount required by each year left on the loan.

This ignores tax. Dirt on deposit interest and tax relief on loan payments if applicable both tend to reduce the amount of discount needed.

In summary €2,000 per €100,000 loan balance per year remaining seems like a good rule of thumb for a discount.

BOSI wants out of Ireland they may be willing to accept less. All the best to anyone trying this and please let us know how it goes.

Thanks again for a very informative post.

So if I owe €430K over 25 years then a discount of €215K or 50% would a reasonable starting point?
 
Not exactly

The saving to the bank at approx 2% on €430,000 is €8,600 per annum. Yes I think that is a good starting point. If the loan period is relatively short you could just multiply by the number of years.

However multiplying this by a long period of years such as 25 is not reasonable. A €8,600 saving to the bank this year is not the same as €8,600 in 25 years time.

An NPV calculation using a rate of 5% converts the €215,000 to €121,208 in todays money. You can do this for yourself in excel easily enough.
 
Thank you Cremeegg - money is on deposit but the figures make it look worthwhile. I shall give it some more thought.
 
cremeegg, your calculations don't take account of the reducing balance on TRS30's loan - they would only be correct for interest-only loans like riya99's. TRS30's balance now is 435,000 but in the final year of a 20 year mortgage, the amount outstanding will only be 25K-30K and the 'cost to bank' of the tracker interest would be only a few hundred euros, not 8,600.

I think a cleaner way to look at it is to look at the cost of repaying at the tracker rate vs. the cost of repaying at the bank's cost of borrowing. Essentially, the bank is repaying a loan to another bank over 20 years at 4% but only receiving income from a loan being repaid over 20 years at 1.9% - so they have to make up the shortfall.

435K over 20 years at 1.9% would cost €2,180 per month and 435K over 20 years at 4% would cost €2,620 per month. So every month for 20 years, the bank has to top up the €2,180 they get from TRS30 by €440 of their own money so that they can repay the interbank loan.

€440 * 240 months = €105,600 which has a 5% NPV of about 67K.
 
cremeegg, your calculations don't take account of the reducing balance on TRS30's loan - they would only be correct for interest-only loans like riya99's. TRS30's balance now is 435,000 but in the final year of a 20 year mortgage, the amount outstanding will only be 25K-30K and the 'cost to bank' of the tracker interest would be only a few hundred euros, not 8,600.

I think a cleaner way to look at it is to look at the cost of repaying at the tracker rate vs. the cost of repaying at the bank's cost of borrowing. Essentially, the bank is repaying a loan to another bank over 20 years at 4% but only receiving income from a loan being repaid over 20 years at 1.9% - so they have to make up the shortfall.

435K over 20 years at 1.9% would cost €2,180 per month and 435K over 20 years at 4% would cost €2,620 per month. So every month for 20 years, the bank has to top up the €2,180 they get from TRS30 by €440 of their own money so that they can repay the interbank loan.

€440 * 240 months = €105,600 which has a 5% NPV of about 67K.

Another interesting point.

I should have mentioned that €200K is interest & capital and €230K is interest only for the full term of the loan.

So I would have to do a combination of the two calculations.
 
Just to say that I accept Orka's point about the capital and interest mortgage. I had been looking at IO

I wonder what the chances of BOSI agreeing a discount in this region are.

The big picture here is that this type of tracker is worth a lot, don't pay it off unless you get a substantial inducement.
 
Update*********

Wrote to BOSI about three weeks ago with an offer of €250K to redeem my mortgages with them. Got a letter back from them yesterday. They rejected the offer and said the full amount was owed. No major issue with that, it's their right to reject my offer however what annoyed me was they went on to say that if there was any arrears that they would charge the full amount of interest on this and if I didn't keep up full repayments my houses was at risk etc etc.

Having never missed a payment in over 5 years with them though this was unnecessary and even threatening.

Am thinking of my reply and might include my own threat of going to the UK to go bankrupt.....

Have had a good relationship with them up to now however their letter has really annoyed me.
 
HI TRS


however what annoyed me was they went on to say that if there was any arrears that they would charge the full amount of interest on this and if I didn't keep up full repayments my houses was at risk etc etc.


You might find that it is a requirement of the Code and they have no choice but to say it.
 
HI TRS





You might find that it is a requirement of the Code and they have no choice but to say it.

Brendan; it could well be and I may be reading too much into it. Will take the weekend to relax and then read the letter again with a clear head next week.
 
HI TRS

You might find that it is a requirement of the Code and they have no choice but to say it.

Yes, I think Mr. Burgess is correct on this.

All too often, we read things like "Your home is at risk .....".

I'm not going to go reading through the CCMA (Consumer Code on Mortgage Arrears) and CPC (Consumer Protection Code), but if TRS is particularly concerned by the content of the letter, he/ she would be wise to first check the codes before having a go at the Bank.

I find it amazing, not just with BoS but with all of the lenders, that they continue to refuse to do deals to get people out of the Tracker Loans ....

Regards

Mr. Earl.
 
Hi TRS30,
Did BOSI come back with a counter offer and have you just dropped this?

Would be interested in finding out as I have 390k with another 30 years to run and ecb +.75.

No rush to pay it off but if they made it worth my while then they could get 1 tracker off their books.
 
Hi al,
BOSI will not do a deal on private homes no matter what the interest rate is and how much money they are losing. They will most definitely not do a deal if you are not in arrears and comfortable financially! This is from my experience of dealing with them and Certus on a daily basis.
They are scared of doing deals on private homes due to the fact that they are owned by Lloyds who have 10 times the amount of home mortgages in the UK than they have here and if they start to "do deals" on home mortgages here it would potentially bring down the whole bank in the UK as all the UK borrowers would look for deals as well.
Deals are being done on commercial BOS loans, which I work on, and very few are being done and only in exceptional cases on residential mortgages.
The majority of the wording on their letters about arrears and the risk to your home is from a template and you will get this in all replies.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi al,
BOSI will not do a deal on private homes no matter what the interest rate is and how much money they are losing. They will most definitely not do a deal if you are not in arrears and comfortable financially! This is from my experience of dealing with them and Certus on a daily basis.
They are scared of doing deals on private homes due to the fact that they are owned by Lloyds who have 10 times the amount of home mortgages in the UK than they have here and if they start to "do deals" on home mortgages here it would potentially bring down the whole bank in the UK as all the UK borrowers would look for deals as well.
Deals are being done on commercial BOS loans, which I work on, and very few are being done and only in exceptional cases on residential mortgages.
The majority of the wording on their letters about arrears and the risk to your home is from a template and you will get this in all replies.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply, this is good information to have!

Is the above in relation to Lloyds fact or just your opinion? Is this the only reason and they are losing money on cheap trackers or they are not so are two reasons?

Also do you what they are doing if you sell your home and have a shortfall?
 
Hello: Commercial could you please PM me as I'm looking for some professional help with BOI on a BTL property? Thank you.
 
Hi TRS30,
Did BOSI come back with a counter offer and have you just dropped this?

Would be interested in finding out as I have 390k with another 30 years to run and ecb +.75.

No rush to pay it off but if they made it worth my while then they could get 1 tracker off their books.

Sorry missed your question earlier.

There "counter offer" was pay the loans in full or we will charge you full interest on the arrears!
 
Hi TRS. This is fact. Not my opinion.
I am unsure of your second question.
As regards the shortfall, it all depends on your financial circumstances, but there are certain ways to deal with this.

Hi MaxRuby. I am unable to PM you
 
Hi TRS. This is fact. Not my opinion.
I am unsure of your second question.
As regards the shortfall, it all depends on your financial circumstances, but there are certain ways to deal with this.

Hi MaxRuby. I am unable to PM you

Thanks again.

I appreciate there are different ways of dealing with shortfalls however I was wondering if you knew what there general approach is? Are they converting it to unsecure debt via a long term loan? If so at what rate as I believe they don't have any other rates other than the one your mortgage is on.
 
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