Greens pull plug

StevieC said:
Contrary to previous posts. The international view is that the existing government have done everything right but everything that can go wrong has gone wrong. Brian Cowen was voted one of the top ten international leaders not so long ago.
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I don't believe that. The EU has been looking for details for the budget plans for months now. International factors have forced the government to come clean regards how bad things are.
Certainly kinder things may be said in public, but the fact is the EU/IMF are in because no one has any confidence that the government is making any progress.

If FF had the best interests of the country at heart, it would have called an election early October when the EU demanded a detailed 4 year plan. At least a new government would be around for the duration of the plan and provide stability.
 
Complainer said:
Richard Bruton - Is that you?
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Strangely, I misread that name as Richard Burton initially. Even stranger, it would have been appropriate in an odd way - OTT dramatising etc.

Stranger still, I don't think I have ever misread Richard Bruton as Richard Burton before - and I can't understand why because you would think it would be a common enough error.
 
Ceist Beag said:
Are ye sure about that? That's not the impression I got - I thought the idea was that we wouldn't be going back to the markets for a few years now and that when we need further funding we would draw down from the fund set up by the EU/IMF?
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Well from a business point of view, it makes most sense to take the cheapest interest rate you can. If markets are soothed by the knowledge that we have the IMF/ECB to fall back on then that should reduce open market rates.

IF an investor knows there is no risk because we are backed by Europe then its a no brainer for them to offer money.

For example if Europe offers us money at 5%, then a savy investor knows there is no chance of default and offers at 4.9%. This is a simplified example but demonstrates what we need to happen.

The whole objective is to get markets to correct themselves so what rating agencies and the markets think is vital. The IMF, ECB, even the British government, wont bankroll us forever.
 
StevieC said:
Well from a business point of view, it makes most sense to take the cheapest interest rate you can. If markets are soothed by the knowledge that we have the IMF/ECB to fall back on then that should reduce open market rates.

IF an investor knows there is no risk because we are backed by Europe then its a no brainer for them to offer money.

For example if Europe offers us money at 5%, then a savy investor knows there is no chance of default and offers at 4.9%. This is a simplified example but demonstrates what we need to happen.

The whole objective is to get markets to correct themselves so what rating agencies and the markets think is vital. The IMF, ECB, even the British government, wont bankroll us forever.
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Fair enough Stevie but I don't think it's worth delaying an election because of what the market might think right now - I think getting the current lot out ASAP will be better as far as the markets are concerned in the long run.
 
Shawady said:
I don't believe that. The EU has been looking for details for the budget plans for months now. International factors have forced the government to come clean regards how bad things are.
Certainly kinder things may be said in public, but the fact is the EU/IMF are in because no one has any confidence that the government is making any progress.

If FF had the best interests of the country at heart, it would have called an election early October when the EU demanded a detailed 4 year plan. At least a new government would be around for the duration of the plan and provide stability.
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The EU have backed every play the government made to this point. The only point of consternation was the bank guarantee which other countries soon copied.

The problem isnt the government in my opinion, its the banks. The fact that 23 billion worth of deposits has left AIB and BOI this year is the reason the IMF have been called in.

Also I'd like to point out we no longer have a Central Bank in Ireland, because our currency is the euro, the ECB is our lender of last resort. Really they have 2 options, back us or kick us out the euro. The reason they came over to look at our books is much more serious than many people think.

I am not defending FF, I am simply saying from a business point of view (and I am viewing the country as a business), this announcement today does more damage than if they had waited until january to pull the plug.
 
Tbh, I don't think anyone gives a toss what the markets think at this stage. Delaying the election is bad for everyone.
 
Steve, I think there's a bit more to it than a series of unfortunate events and that what is recognised is the huge public anger with the current government.

They more or less have a it guaranteed that the budget will be passed as will the programme for implementing the cuts (let's face it most of the cuts will have been agreed by the IMF advisors), that was their main concern. They know that the lifeline of the current government is very temporary and that uncertainty is affecting confidence. From what I can gather, knowing that irrespective of government, the plans will be implemented, they want now to have a stable government for the 4 year term of the agreement. So they'd rather there was an election to have a new full term for a government and to dispell some of the public anger.
 
I agree communication has been handled badly but I genuinely think both the Brians were doing the best job they could at every point in time based on the information available to them at the time. Its easy to look back in hindsight and say they should have done something different.

I dont believe the general public are as angry as the media is making out. I believe the general public dislike whats going on but accept that their will have to be pain regardless of where it comes from (FF/Greens or FG/Labour).

Every sector of society is going to be annoyed at having their standard of living cut but I think the anger is misdirected. Its the bankers that should be strung up for basically gambling with the nations credit. Had they run their businesses with any principles other than greed, we wouldnt be in the mess we are in now.

I dont agree that the budget is more or less guaranteed. I believe FG and Labour will have to abstain from voting against it for the good of the country. Hopefully they will do this as FF/Greens cant rely on independents based on the interviews with Healy-Rae and Lowry at lunchtime.

My feeling is that some of the more outspoken members of the Greens put the gun to Gormleys head at the weekend without even thinking of the consequences.
 
Did you actually read the Greens statement? They're not pulling out until after the 4 year plan has been agreed and the Budget passed.
 
StevieC said:
I agree communication has been handled badly but I genuinely think both the Brians were doing the best job they could at every point in time based on the information available to them at the time. Its easy to look back in hindsight and say they should have done something different.
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With all due respect Stevie I think you're either naive or misguided in believing this. At every point along the windy road of the past few years there have been people predicting the next turn whilst the two Brians have been denying it until we went around the corner. Their credibility is shot to pieces and even if, as you believe, they were being honest with the public, that just makes them even more incompetent for not being able to see what an awful lot of people (without the same access to the data) were able to see. I don't for a minute believe they were being upfront and honest with the public since this all started.
 
StevieC said:
I agree communication has been handled badly but I genuinely think both the Brians were doing the best job they could at every point in time based on the information available to them at the time. Its easy to look back in hindsight and say they should have done something different.
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Badly handled!! you are having a laugh!!
That is the understatement of the century..

Both doing the best job ! you have got to be joking!
REGULATOR ,mean anything?

I dont believe the general public are as angry as the media is making out. I believe the general public dislike whats going on but accept that their will have to be pain regardless of where it comes from (FF/Greens or FG/Labour)
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lol, NOW come on ,are you actually serious ..the general public is VERY angry,angry about not being told the situation,angry that the banks were bailed out,I could go on but you get the picture..
 
The government isnt the regulator. Regulator is a public servant not a politician. Very separate things. Obviously the regulator was asleep at the wheel but the government can only act on the information which they are given. Frankly I dont think anyone could honestly expect the two Brians to know exactly what was going on in the banks when the regulator was willing to go on prime time telly and say the banks were fine.

Lets face it, the public (including many posters here) want heads on platters and politicians are easier to sack than bankers to jail.
 
StevieC said:
The government isnt the regulator. Regulator is a public servant not a politician. Very separate things. Obviously the regulator was asleep at the wheel but the government can only act on the information which they are given.
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And what information were they given? What information was Cowen given at his private dinner with the Board of Anglo in April 2008?
 
StevieC;
The government isnt the regulator. Regulator is a public servant not a politician. Very separate things. Obviously the regulator was asleep at the wheel but the government can only act on the information which they are given. Frankly I dont think anyone could honestly expect the two Brians to know exactly what was going on in the banks when the regulator was willing to go on prime time telly and say the banks were fine.
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Right so when the world was all rosy for the two Bs, and obviously they were not as busy as they are at the moment,the Regulator goes on de telle,and says, shure everytings grand lads..
Yea ,I see where you are coming from alright..NOT
 
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Complainer said:
And what information were they given? What information was Cowen given at his private dinner with the Board of Anglo in April 2008?
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Does anyone know if any of the opposition leaders have had dinner with the boards of any of the banks in the last 5 years?

I remember when Quinn was minimster for Finance the labour party were criticised for hosting a fund raising dinner selling face time with the then minister.
 
Its these types of comments that are totally unhelpful.

The dinner you refer to was a private function of someone retiring. I have been to many friends/co-workers retirement dinners. I am sure most of the country has. Not every event has to have sinister reasons.

As for the regulator. Well your flippant remarks aside, the government was busy trying to get the European referendum passed at the time. Its not like they were sitting around drinking pints (oh wait thats a crime too now I hear even at social events). If we hadnt passed the European referendum do you think our colleagues in Europe would be as helpful as they are being now???

Seriously quit the cheap shots and think about what actually matters, getting FF out at the right time just not announcing it in the middle of possibly the most important 2 months of the country since the creation of the state.

Its done now, I just think the Greens should have held off until early january.
 
StevieC said:
The dinner you refer to was a private function of someone retiring. I have been to many friends/co-workers retirement dinners. I am sure most of the country has.
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So you don't see anything dodgy about the board of a bank (which includes a close buddy of Cowen, Fintan Drury) inviting Cowen (former Min Finance, just appointed Taoiseach) for private dinner, at a time when the same bank was already under pressure and under scrutiny by the regulator.

Do you really think that they just wanted to share a glass of wine?

PS Who retired?
 
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