Government appoints experts to consult on indebtedness

[canicemcavoy]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Who is saying that I cannot be criticized for things I have said on this forum?

I thought that was what our friend from the aforementioned punk band was suggesting; he says I misunderstood him and I accept that.

As for personal abuse, yes, you are absolutely within your rights to delete any personal abuse of you.

The cold facts of the matter are that I did neither dismissed nor endorsed, McWilliams or Kelly during the property boom.

But you dismissed them after the boom?

I must say I find it odd that someone interested in finance has never even heard of Marc Coleman. You really should read him, if only for entertainment value. His last book is genuinely ROTFLsome these days, based seemingly on a trip to Narnia.

I'm now genuinely curious - if you did not read economists and not rate them at all, on what did or do you base your opinion of the property market?

(Personally, I never paid too much attention to the _predictions_ of ecomomists but, rather, on what data they were basing said predictions on.)

But as you have recommended him so strongly, I will pay more attention to him in future.

Ah. I think sadly, the problem here is, it's far too late.

 

[Mpsox]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

There is a definition of an economist as someone who spends half of their career coming up with an economic theory and the other half of their career explaining why it doesn't work.

So Brendan may not have been 100% correct on the property bubble, so what?, he's not perfect. It's easy for some posters to say it was obvious that the bubble was going to burst but I question if any forecastor expected the perfect storm we sailed into. Did I see it coming, yes, basic laws of supply and demand dictated that, but I didn't expect the scale of it. I thought(hoped) for a softer landing.

Bear in mind as well that property ownership is a long term investment. It's quite possible, in 20 years time, Brendan may have been proved right. Who knows? One of the failings of the last few years is that many people did not invest long term in property, they speculated for short terms gains. There is a fundamental difference between the two.

As for vested interests, everyone on here has a vested interest in someway. UFC for example, as someone who doesn't own property, has a vested interest in property prices continuing to fall so that when he does go to buy, the property will cost less.

Some comments have been made about Brendan not listening, I don't believe these are correct, I believe he listens, but he doesn't necessarily always agree. That is his perogative. After all, this would be a very boring place if we all agreed with each other. There are people on here who I don't always agree with and one or 2 who I probably never have or never will agree with. It's doesn't mean I don't listen to them. It just means that my opinions differ.

 

[Sunny]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

I don't want to comment on the expert group, but I think that this is a mistaken view of what we will be doing.

from the press release
My understanding of this is that we are not going to talk for 18 months and then write a report.

We will be making recommendations on a rolling basis which is very different from producing a report a long time later.

It is not my job to discuss how we will function, but I would guess that we will be open to ideas from every source - the media and discussion forums like Askaboutmoney, IrishEconomy.ie and The Property Pin.

I will take your word for it Brendan! Just cynical about these things! There has been alot of good work done by various panels on various subjects sitting on some desk gathering dust!

 

[casiopea]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

I am repeating myself now, but his inability to see what was staring him in the face (a bubble) and his inability to listen to people who have differing viewpoints (even now he thinks those with differing viewpoints - McWilliams, Kelly - are hysterical, even though they have been mostly correct so far) suggests he may not make decisions which are good enough (by my standards) for Ireland.

Hi UFC,

This is where Im baffled though. Brendan is not our taoiseach, he is not a TD or the minister for finance - he is certainly not in a position to make decisions that will impact Ireland as you imply above. He has started a financial website that has many contributors from many verticals but like all anonymous forums you should not take the advice as gospel, you should always double check, double check and double check again. He is a consumer advocate - but they can always be wrong. At the end of hte day when talking about property prices, interest rates, shares etc. you are predicting the future on what you know now...but its still the future. In short, Im not really too sure why you (and many others) seem to feel that he should be held up to a particular standard or indeed that he *should* be right?

I personally feel many are feeling the recession and just want someone to blame and are picking easy targets.

Just my 2c

 

[canicemcavoy]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

There is a definition of an economist as someone who spends half of their career coming up with an economic theory and the other half of their career explaining why it doesn't work.

I'm sure that Brendan will, at the next meeting of the mortgage debt group, be sure to pass the best wishes of everyone at AAM on to David Duffy of the ERSI, who all think he picked a wonderful career.

 

[sinbadsailor]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Did you?

Well I'm not a leading figure in financial/political circles nor do I have any means to be any great influence over a large group of the Irish public. So if thats the question then apart from trying to educate those close to me, then no I didn't.

 

[kaplan]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

If one considers the remit of the task group which says its an expert group on consumer debt then the question that arises is what specific expertise is a person being appointed for?

Considering the task group mandate this indicates a demonstrable expertise in consumer debt and or consumer protection such as legal, economic and social dimensions of consumer debt and or indebtedness.

Having established the area of expertise then it’s a matter of considering a past record of achievement.

What is the record of achievement the expert person has in using the expertise they are being appointed for?

If a person comports themselves as a consumer advocate – then as advocacy is an expertise which is measured in results achieved, it should be relatively easy to show this as as results in consumer protection advocacy in financial services are quite public.

If a person is appointed, as it is perceived they are a consumer advocate with relevant expertise, experience, qualifications and track record of success in advocacy on consumer financial services then it is also a matter of considering their publications, espoused thinking and views on consumer protection at micro and macro levels.

These are tests if you like of a person expert on consumer debt, having an established track record in consumer advocacy where they can demonstrate achievements that have been recognised as achieving positive outcomes for consumers. It is likely that such a person would have a record of publications addressing either the theory of consumer protection and or its practical implications.

Finally surely consumer protection is advocating for the wise use of money, protecting unsophisticated consumers against the abusive marketing of credit and the promotion of safe and sound credit products. Does recommending 100% interest only mortgages to first time buyers fit the safe and sound financial product category?

Products designed as interest only first time buyer mortgages and stretching affordability criteria were at the heart of the US mortgage market problems. Similar products here also caused serious predictable problems.

 

[Dave Vanian]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Well I'm not a leading figure in financial/political circles nor do I have any means to be any great influence over a large group of the Irish public. So if thats the question then apart from trying to educate those close to me, then no I didn't.

Brendan was working in a recruitment business when he set up Askaboutmoney out of his own pocket, although previous to this he had campaigned on consumer finance issues.

Nobody had the courage to stand up to what was clearly a government/financial industry (note industry, not just banks!) to profit at the behest of the general public.

In the internet age, anyone can make themselves heard if they try.

 

[Dave Vanian]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

If a person comports themselves as a consumer advocate – then as advocacy is an expertise which is measured in results achieved, it should be relatively easy to show this as as results in consumer protection advocacy in financial services are quite public.

Well said - Brendan's achievements to date in the area of campaigning against unfair practices in personal finance are presumably a large component of why he was asked to join this voluntary committee.

 

[UFC]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Hi UFC,

This is where Im baffled though. Brendan is not our taoiseach, he is not a TD or the minister for finance - he is certainly not in a position to make decisions that will impact Ireland as you imply above. He has started a financial website that has many contributors from many verticals but like all anonymous forums you should not take the advice as gospel, you should always double check, double check and double check again. He is a consumer advocate - but they can always be wrong. At the end of hte day when talking about property prices, interest rates, shares etc. you are predicting the future on what you know now...but its still the future. In short, Im not really too sure why you (and many others) seem to feel that he should be held up to a particular standard or indeed that he *should* be right?

I personally feel many are feeling the recession and just want someone to blame and are picking easy targets.

Just my 2c

Hi Casiopea

You need to read this thread: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132994

Brendan has been appointed to a group of experts who will advise the Government on how to handle the issue of debt reform/forgiveness.

 

[jhegarty]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Hi Casiopea

You need to read this thread: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132994

Brendan has been appointed to a group of experts who will advise the Government on how to handle the issue of debt reform/forgiveness.

But that's now.

You are criticising him for what he said (a few posts carefully selected from 11,234 posts) in the past.

 

[What Goes Up]

Post Moved from: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Quotes from the Property Pin: -

"F***ing moron." (Intelligent criticism of David Duffy on hearing he is on the debt committee.)

There were links supplied with that "intelligent criticism".
I'll supply the links:

Original quote with links:
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewto...359705#p359705
Quote:
Originally Posted by What Goes Up...
They've got David "In many cases negative equity will not be an issue" Duffy on the panel as well.
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewto...307474#p307474
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewto...307481#p307481

 

[Coles]

Sorry Coles. Brendan Burgess might be willing to answer criticism about his "real-world" reputation, personal shareholdings, advice etc., from anonymous posters on this board, even though he doesn't know what some of their motivations or personal interests are.

But I'm not.

Fair enough, but it wasn't actually meant as a personal criticism, and I didn't mean to cause offence. In fact I have no idea who you are. The humour was in the fact that your advice was actually sound, but the context in which it was given was not. Clearly you didn't see the bubble or consider it's impact. You're not unique.

But we need people who did. We need 'experts' who understand what is happening because we are only begininig this journey, and every mistake will compound the misery of our citizens. I actually broadly agree with Brendan's submission, but I hope to God he understands the responsibility he has towards the Public. I wish him the best of luck in this post.

 

[Calina]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

This thread amuses me. For the benefit of those who don't already know, many of the critics of Brendan Burgess on this thread are regulars on another financial website, The Property Pin. The Property Pin was set up some years ago by a group of Askaboutmoney posters who got thrown off this board for repeated breaches of posting guidelines. Rather than simply letting it go and moving on like adults, they set up their own board and have spent literally years slagging Brendan off and trying to make out that he's some sort of evil genius out of an Austin Power mivie.

I would rather disagree with this assessment of the Property Pin, speaking as someone who has posted there for quite some time. I think if you were to look at most of what's there, it consists of quite a broad range of discussion on property related economics, wider investment matters, politics and how they interplay. I don't believe it was set up as a home for disgruntled ex-AAM posters per se although it probably benefited from an influx of posters courtesy of policy changes here. That is my take on it anyway. Additionally the profile of posters there has changed over the time I have been a member there; this is true of every single internet forum I have ever contributed to however.

Hi Calina

On 1 April 2009, I set up a spoof House Price Discussion forum. So I moved the thread into that. When April Fool's day was over, I moved the whole forum including that thread.

It's back in its rightful place now.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=31710

Brendan, thank you for moving it. I appreciate that.

 

[Coles]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

In the internet age, anyone can make themselves heard if they try.

That's right. People tried to discuss the property/credit bubble here but were banned, so they went to the Property Pin.

 

[UFC]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

But that's now.

You are criticising him for what he said (a few posts carefully selected from 11,234 posts) in the past.

Are you trying to suggest what happens in the past is irrelevant? I think most people would (and should) disagree with you.

Your past actions are very relevant if you are in a position where you can influence how our tax money is spent.

 

[casiopea]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Hi Casiopea

You need to read this thread: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132994

Brendan has been appointed to a group of experts who will advise the Government on how to handle the issue of debt reform/forgiveness.

Thanks UFC,
I was aware of the appointment and my opinion still stands. I dont think Brendan has spoken inappropriately about house prices in the past. I dont think he is always right but I dont expect him or anyone to be - it is the future, there has to be some speculation and therefore some incorrect predictions. I think he is qualified for the job and has done more for many peoples financial wellbeing (by simply setting up this site) than most.

Finally at the end of the day the only person responsible for my debt is me (- I know you are not personally blaming Brendan for any debt you may have) a lot of this thread seems to be generated by a general bitterness and a looking to lay the blame as we are in harder times. Someone like Brendan, who puts himself out there, voices his opinion, doesnt hide behind a username is a very easy target. In my humble opinion that is whats happening here.

 

[canicemcavoy]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Finally at the end of the day the only person responsible for my debt is me

Many people including myself would agree with you. I presume then you don't support the idea of a mortgage debt scheme which takes the burden off those who paid too much for property and spreads it across taxpayers?

 

[casiopea]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Many people including myself would agree with you. I presume then you don't support the idea of a mortgage debt scheme which takes the burden off those who paid too much for property and spreads it across taxpayers?

Hi Canicemcavoy,
I think that discussion warrants a thread of it own and that we are danger of pulling things seriously OT if we go into it. The short answer is your assumption is correct with a caveat(!)

I dont support schemes that will enable developers, banks, investors, risk-friendly punters or even unlucky folk to dig themselves out of debt. I dont think the irish tax payer should have to support that. I do however feel that some ordinary people are finding themselves in extraordinary times and some with young families are having trouble living from day to day. These I feel should be means evaluated and supported. Its when you see, read, hear about families like this (who worry how to keep a roof over their childrens heads and feed them at the same time) that these black and white arguments become very unrealistic.

All off topic though. Mod, feel free to delete or spawn a separate thread.

cas.

 

[Afuera]

Re: What I have actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Well said - Brendan's achievements to date in the area of campaigning against unfair practices in personal finance are presumably a large component of why he was asked to join this voluntary committee.

Or the cynic could just as easily argue that it was due to his pro-banking outlook and "don't rock the boat" nature shown during his policing of the financial regulator.