Reminds me of a story told in Brendan Behan's Borstal Boy. While Brendan was imprisoned in borstal with a few hundred other teenage boys, it was decided to stage a nativity play for Christmas. The boys were invited to audition for the various roles and the governor said that his daughter had volunteered to play Mary. Up pipes Behan, "can I be the Holy Spirit"
George Hook
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Reminds me of a story told in Brendan Behan's Borstal Boy. While Brendan was imprisoned in borstal with a few hundred other teenage boys, it was decided to stage a nativity play for Christmas. The boys were invited to audition for the various roles and the governor said that his daughter had volunteered to play Mary. Up pipes Behan, "can I be the Holy Spirit"
Duke of Marmalade
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Can't you see the contradiction here. The male is guilty for not taking his own precautions and yet in the George Hook case the victim carries no responsibility for throwing all caution to the wind.
I don't see that the relationship is in any way adversarial, in fact, only God's messenger is present with Mary to put God's case and take her response back. I don't understand the extrapolations you make from events you don't know about. . The Christian churches that teach about Mary's impregnation regard it as miraculous. There is no mention of assault or rape or lack of consent and none of these are present in any writing of the events. I've asked you to produce evidence for your point of view; it's clear at this stage you have none.
You want me to provide 'evidence' of a 'miraculous' event? 
I rather thought my point of view was pretty clear.
The woman is afraid, the 'visitor' scares her, she is told she will become pregnant, although she clearly says she has chosen up to now not to have sex with a man.
This is a God who is willing to bring plagues and floods; who will turn people into salt for disobeying. How much choice does Mary really have here?
You may not like or agree with my interpretation, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't make it invalid.
I rather thought my point of view was pretty clear.
The woman is afraid, the 'visitor' scares her, she is told she will become pregnant, although she clearly says she has chosen up to now not to have sex with a man.
This is a God who is willing to bring plagues and floods; who will turn people into salt for disobeying. How much choice does Mary really have here?
You may not like or agree with my interpretation, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't make it invalid.
I've read this again and for me it speaks to a really disturbing mindset where abstract theory and fundamentalist principle and more important than motivation, reality and practicality.
As a atheist I have no dog in this fight but to dismiss the Christian message of compassion and forgiveness (“do onto others as you would wish them to do onto you” and “love your neighbour as yourself”) because of an absurd position about an allegorical conception story which pre-dates Christianity by nearly a millennia is, in my opinion, deeply bigoted and shows a “liberal” fundamentalism bereft of compassion and understanding which is actually the antitheses of what being liberal really is.
To then suggest that it is the reason, or a major part of the reason, that we have a ”rape culture” strengthens that view and is deeply offensive to all Christians and all men.
I am not part of a “rape culture”.
No man I know is part of a “rape culture”.
No man I know thinks it is in any way acceptable to in any way force anyone into a sexual act.
The reason the RC Church became a hypocritical institution which both facilitated and covered up the abuse and rape of Children is the same reason the BBC did the same; it was run by unaccountable and misogynistic old men who thought that the institution was so important that protecting it was more important than anything else. I have no doubt that if there were more women at the top these things simply would not have happened.
Ceist Beag
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Well said Purple.
Ceist Beag
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No man I know thinks it is in any way acceptable to murder someone. And yet murder still happens, everyday, in all populations, in all countries, against all ages. So do you think that murder culture is also engrained?
It does. Bestiality and necrophilia also take place. To say that something is a "culture" is to imply that it is widely acceptable. In the context of this country that is patently absurd.
Are you actually quoting the current 'interpretation' of a >2000 year old story, littered with many confirmed factual inaccuracies, was originally written many years after the events by people who were not present, and has been translated and mistranslated and modified significantly many times over the years as evidence or a definitive account?
Also, it was the translation from Hebrew to ancient Greek that switched from a word meaning young woman to one generally used to describe a virgin.
And of course all that ignores the Pantera theory too.
Hey, leave Heavy Metal outta this, Pantera's record did not tell George to say that, even if you play it backwards...... (btw I'm amused by the mixing of a widly theoretical conversation with real world events. How many angels are we up to on the head of a pin guys?)
(btw I'm amused by the mixing of a widly theoretical conversation with real world events. How many angels are we up to on the head of a pin guys?)I'm disturbed by a mindset which can find offense and oppressive male dominance of "wemmen" in just about everything.
Kitty Holland has an excellent article in todays IT about George and his comments.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/george-hook-should-be-challenged-not-silenced-1.3219952
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/george-hook-should-be-challenged-not-silenced-1.3219952
A very experienced criminal lawyer friend of mine, who has defended many people accused of the most heinous crimes says that he can understand murderers, they are ordinary people who whether through weakness or pressure have done a terrible thing. That we all experience feelings, which brought to an extreme could lead to murder. He says that in his experience rapists are identifiably different from ordinary people.
So they are not the result of a "culture" as otherwise they would be normal people.
I don't think it's excellent at all. She does the usual thing of conflating rape, women's rights generally and abortion as if you are some sort of misogynistic pig who things it's okay to sexually assault women if you don't support abortion. I find her article and its implications grossly offensive just as much as I found George Hook's comments grossly offensive.
She says "Such views are underpinned by a society that politically and economically disadvantages women and girls, in the workforce – as exemplified by Newstalk’s male-only schedule between 7am and 7pm Monday to Friday; in politics; and in a Constitution that denies us the right to decide what happens to and in our bodies."
She ignores the fact that Newstalk had a woman co-host for their evening show until a week ago but changed things around because listenership figures were dropping.
My teenage daughter tells me that some of her friends are sexually active. She said that some of them pressure their boyfriends into having sex with them. Should those girls be charges with rape? Are they part of a rape culture?
Duke of Marmalade
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I know this "virgin birth doctrine gives rise to a rape culture" is only a troll (please Thirsty say it is so).
There is no doubt that it has influenced attitudes to sexual activity but in the exact opposite way. It implies that there is even something a bit dubious about consensual sex within marriage
And the figures bear this out. Rape statistics are much less in RC Europe than Protestant Europe. I think e.g. 4 per 100k in Italy vs 70 per 100k in Sweden.
Now, I hear you say, that is because RC countries under report rapes. I am sure that is so but that only goes to underscore that RC culture is much more anti rape than Protestant culture and that has a direct link to the RC devotion to the BVM.
There is no doubt that it has influenced attitudes to sexual activity but in the exact opposite way. It implies that there is even something a bit dubious about consensual sex within marriage
And the figures bear this out. Rape statistics are much less in RC Europe than Protestant Europe. I think e.g. 4 per 100k in Italy vs 70 per 100k in Sweden.
Now, I hear you say, that is because RC countries under report rapes. I am sure that is so but that only goes to underscore that RC culture is much more anti rape than Protestant culture and that has a direct link to the RC devotion to the BVM.