fortune tellers/psychics

ci1 said:
Do you believe that the moon controls the tide?
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Are you implying that astrological fortune telling is gravity based?

truthseeker said:
Actually Ive studied astrology to some degree and have a large number of textbooks on the subject - it IS an interesting concept. But weirdly it was my study of it that robbed me of my belief in it!! I used to be a believer to some extent, but once I understood how it worked and learned the fundamentals of the discipline I stopped believing.
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How it worked? Discipline? Are you having a laugh?

MrMan said:
I understand that searching for answers has led to great achievements, progress etc, but the constant search seems to mean that many of us myself included often don't take the time to actually appreciate how amazing things are around us.
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Sorry - I fail to see how the two activities might be in conflict or mutually exclusive.
 
ci1 said:
Do you believe that the moon controls the tide?
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Well, I know it does. Its a physical law, unlike astrology which has no physical laws. However, I also know that the moon has no influence on decisions I might make about my own future. How can it know me personally ? If it did, I might as well do nothing, make no decisions for myself and just let the stars decide.

Astrology is very subjective, and based on stereotypes - for example, i can 'see' that you are a lady, probably 20 -> early 30's ish ? This is the stereotypical gender/age who go to Astrologers. Does this mean I am psychic ? No. But it does show that astrologers only need to right some of the time, because statistically they have a good chance of getting it right by fitting people into their stereotypes, and then using clever questions/statements to zero-in on the 'answer'.

Listen carefully to the verbal exchanges between the astrologer and client. The astrologer will use 'cold reading' (see http://skepdic.com/coldread.html) and funnelling (start with broad questions, and zero-in on something that is meaningful to the client, based on clients own feedback). The techniques are very good and coupled with the clients frame of mind, body language, nationality, gender age, marital status can appear to be psychic. (how many clients remove wedding/engagement rings before a session ?)

Unfortunately personal experience is very unreliable as evidence. It does not account for other factors such as frame-of-mind (grieving, depressed) or which the client may be unaware of, but which plays a part in the 'reading'. A good Astrologer will figure these out.
 
truthseeker said:
batty - its possible you ARE me as my experiences are exactly the same as yours in this regard - its amazing how much people say then refuse to believe they just said it!!! Again it just shows that people reinforce their own belief by only seeing what they want to see.

The Derren Brown phenomna is very similiar, at this point people believe that because its Derren Brown he WILL be able to read their minds, thus putting Derren in a strong position from the outset.
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Spooky-eh??!! Maybe we are the same person who has 2 separate personalities & each doesn't realise the other exists!!!
 
ClubMan said:
How it worked? Discipline? Are you having a laugh?
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Well I dont like to dismiss something without investigation, so I investigated......

I wish it DID work!! Life would be considerably easier if I could consult the stars!!!
 
batty said:
Spooky-eh??!! Maybe we are the same person who has 2 separate personalities & each doesn't realise the other exists!!!
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My goodness - I wonder if this is the mystery exposed of people saying 'oh I saw you in town on saturday afternoon?' whereas really I was nowhere near town on saturday afternoon......


cue the Twilight Zone music..........
 
truthseeker said:
Well I dont like to dismiss something without investigation, so I investigated......
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If someone told you that they could tell the future by looking at the hair pattern on your backside would you investigate it or dismiss it out of hand?
 
Purple said:
If someone told you that they could tell the future by looking at the hair pattern on your backside would you investigate it or dismiss it out of hand?
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Depends. If one individual told me Id probably dismiss it out of hand. But if I found out that the Third Reich, numerous american presidents, the Freemasons, the British Royal family, Tibetan Buddhists and other large groups of presumably intelligent and in some cases politically powerful people had had a very strong interest in 'ring reading' :) I might well investigate!
 
Sorry - I fail to see how the two activities might be in conflict or mutually exclusive
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Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories. Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.
 
MrMan said:
Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories. Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.
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I think atom splitting is pretty fantastical!!

My favourite story on the subject of science clashing with religion is Carl Sagan asking the Dalai Lama what would he do if science proved that one of the fundamental beliefs of Buddhism was simply untrue - like re-incarnation. The Dalai Lama replied that if the proof was there then Buddhism would have to change. Carl Sagan was surprised by this and asked if he really meant that. 'Of course' replied the Dalai Lama, with a twinkle in his eye, 'but I think you will have a hard time disproving re-incarnation'.
 
truthseeker said:
My goodness - I wonder if this is the mystery exposed of people saying 'oh I saw you in town on saturday afternoon?' whereas really I was nowhere near town on saturday afternoon......


cue the Twilight Zone music..........
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But what if it was you seeing you in town on a Saturday.....even scarier!!
 
MrMan said:
With science there is no room for the fantastical ...
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Really ?

If the size of the observable universe, black holes, colliding galaxies, exploding stars, light-speed, electricity, gravity, magnetism, the workings of the human-mind, quantum physics and all its 'wierd' consequences to name but a few, are not fantastical then I don't know what is !
 
MrMan said:
Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories.
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Looking at the available evidence and concluding that something is unlikely to the point of not needing to be considered possible is quite the opposite of dismissing things out of hand! Not sure why you dragged atheism into this but since you did I would be of the opinion that people who have blind faith in a religious or other belief system would be much more to dismiss things (e.g. anything that conflicted with their blindly held beliefs) out of hand without applying such a systematic approach to things that those with no belief in mysticism, god etc.
Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.
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You also seem to be confusing skepticism with cynicism and assuming that wonder only exists where ignorance and belief in mysticism flourish?
 
Really ?

If the size of the observable universe, black holes, colliding galaxies, exploding stars, light-speed, electricity, gravity, magnetism, the workings of the human-mind, quantum physics and all its 'wierd' consequences to name but a few, are not fantastical then I don't know what is !
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But do the above really belong to true science, are the observable universe, black holes, galaxies etc the realm of science.

Looking at the available evidence and concluding that something is unlikely to the point of not needing to be considered possible is quite the opposite of dismissing things out of hand!
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Then there is quite a difference between labeling something unlikely and labeling it BS or a scam.

You also seem to be confusing skepticism with cynicism and assuming that wonder requires ignorance and a belief in mysticism.
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More that wonder requires an open mind.
 
MrMan said:
Then there is quite a difference between labeling something unlikely and labeling it BS or a scam.
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When the objective scientific evidence supporting/validating something is practically or actually non existent it's not an unreasonable conclusion.
More that wonder requires an open mind.
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Having an open mind and sanity/reality checking things against the models and evidence available are not mutually exclusive. Some people's minds are so open that they will believe in any old rubbish regardless of the evidence.
 
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