Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coalition

WolfeTone

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" I believe Civil War politics ended in our country a long time ago. Today, Civil War politics ended in our Parliament." - Leo Vradakar

"This is a marriage of convenience, borne out of necessity rather than ambition" - Mary Lou McDonald.

I'm inclined to agree with MLM. This coalition has already been in place in everything but name for the last five years.

If there no civil war politics anymore, why not merge?

A FF/FG/SDLP merger represents a great opportunity to establish an All-Ireland centrist/centre right party to counter SF.
I would imagine Unionism would be more comfortable with such an entity.
 
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Deiseblue

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If the plan for Government is anything to go by we are definitely looking at a left leaning coalition allied to the fact that we have a further left leaning opposition - good times for those of us with similar political views
 

peemac

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What is good to see is that the vast majority of ministers are in their 30's and 40's

That may make the government seem more relevant to the younger voters and pull back some of the protest votes SF got last election.
 

Conan

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Looking at the events in the Convention Centre yesterday, I noticed Michelle O’Neill was with Mar Lou and Pierce. Has Michelle moved to Dublin during the Pandemic? Or does she think the travel restrictions don’t apply to her? Or is it one rule for SF and another for us mere mortals? Perhaps she is doing a “Dominic Cummings”?
 

Feemar5

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According to Mary Lou on the This Week programme today it was a necessary journey - can't imagine why.
 

WolfeTone

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There is no way that an FF&FG party would gain more seats than they both would individually.
That may be true, but unless some fundamental differences can be identified between them, its hard to see long-term the relevance of these two parties existing as minority parties.

As mentioned elsewhere, the political landscape in Ireland is a crowded field. It will remain this way until one party sweeps to power with a majority or near majority. At that point, there will be casualties and will induce the demise of some parties in their current structure.
 

Purple

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unless some fundamental differences can be identified between them, its hard to see long-term the relevance of these two parties existing as minority parties.
There are differences between them. FG is slightly to the left on economic issues and FF is further to the left. Both parties are socially liberal and both are quite populist due to the necessities of our electoral system. FG are Republican, something they share with the Shinners but FF have followed a peaceful and constitutional path for the last 90 years and don't have a private army in reserve and in that they differ from the Shinners. FG are not gone on Republicanism and are happy enough to go with the flow. They pay lip service to a United Ireland in the same way the Shinners do to constitutional democracy, tackling racism, terrorism and criminality.

Basically in a normal democracy the choice between FF and FG is a reasonably healthy one; two centre left parties which have a broad appeal. The only reason they seem to be the same here is they are viewed in the light of the rag-tag collection of extreme left nutters we have and the pseudo-left populist whatever-way-the-wind-is-blowing Shinners. (I like them really, please don't hurt me!)

As the Shinners become more mainstream they will have to appeal to working people who pay taxes rather than a protest vote. They will have to sever ties with the IRA (for real this time) and get rid of some of their more overt homophobes and racists. At that stage they will be a genuine political party but what will differentiate them from FF?
 

Purple

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Considering their traditional base it's strange to see that FG are the most liberal of the larger parties in the country.
 

WolfeTone

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Most of those are now Shinner supporters.
Interesting insight, it would explain the SF surge in the election and the recent controversy to do with abortion rights in that party up in Stormont.
Having said that, SF were in favour of getting rid of the 8th.

My OP is somewhat misleading in the context of calling out the future prospects of Irish political parties, implying that it will be either FF or FG who will demise.
The possibility of a resurgence of both parties at the expense of other, namely SF, is also a possibility.
But if I were to take a guess, it would be that FF is the one under pressure.
 

Purple

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My OP is somewhat misleading in the context of calling out the future prospects of Irish political parties, implying that it will be either FF or FG who will demise.
The possibility of a resurgence of both parties at the expense of other, namely SF, is also a possibility.
But if I were to take a guess, it would be that FF is the one under pressure.
I do agree that there is a fundamental realignment of Irish politics. It's not along a left-right divide but rather on a populist-even more populist divide. The populism of FF and FG is tempered by the fact they have actually been in power and so their policies are tethered to reality, albeit by a long and often frayed rope. The Child Killers and loony left are constrained by no such experience or relationship with reality.
 

Purple

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Except when it came to a socially liberal policy whre more than half its elected representatives voted against it:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I think abortion is a very divisive issue and should not be seen a specifically liberal issue as it is far more complex than that.
I know people from every walk of life who are anti abortion, including members of the LGBTQ community. To put my post in context I voted yes to the 8th but I certainly didn't see it as some liberal victory but rather an acceptance of a very sad reality (who could say that an abortion is anything other than a sad event?). People like me who were strongly in favour of better protection for Trans people, marriage equality and anti hate speech legislation could have serious reservations about abortion. I know I resented it being framed as a religious issue as I'm an atheist and as a woman's issue as children have fathers too (and they get no say at all as to whether they become a parent or not). It's way to complex to be seen through the lense of liberal or conservative.
 
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NoRegretsCoyote

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@Purple

Indeed no issue is simple and not everything lies on a simple liberal/convervative axis.

But if objection to abortion is not a socially conservative trait then we might as well throw labels in the bin.

So if we're still doing labelling it's absurd to call Fianna Fáil socially liberal.
 

Drakon

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I'm inclined to agree with MLM. This coalition has already been in place in everything but name for the last five years.
I disagree. There were many private member bills from opposition TDs that would never have passed in the four years of the 32nd Dáil had FF and FG been in coalition. The weakness in numbers of FG meant that these got through, helped by FF. But now with FF in government with FG few if any will get through.
 

Purple

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@Purple
So if we're still doing labelling it's absurd to call Fianna Fáil socially liberal.
So a party which supports LGBTQ rights, divorce, same sex marriage, same sex adoption and is led by someone who publicly supported the repeal of the 8th is not socially liberal?
I think you need to recalibrate your definition of the word.
I'm not an FF voter because I consider their track record of populism dangerous and I'm probably more socially liberal than them but I couldn't say that they are a conservative party. I don't think there is one in this country.
 

Peanuts20

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Except when it came to a socially liberal policy where more than half its elected representatives voted against it:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  • Who decriminalised homosexuality? FF
  • Who brought in gay marriage?- FG

yes, both parties are more conservative then the left wing guys and girls but between them they have a long track record of social change.

Interestingly as well how in FF, when half their TD's and senators voted against abortion, no action was taken against them as it was considered a vote of conscience and I respect FF leadership for that. Contrast that with the hypocrisy of SF who whipped their TD's and in effect expelled one of them when he refused to go along and yet they allow Paddy Honahan back in and even nominate him for mayor despite his hideous remarks
 

Purple

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  • Who decriminalised homosexuality? FF
  • Who brought in gay marriage?- FG

yes, both parties are more conservative then the left wing guys and girls but between them they have a long track record of social change.

Interestingly as well how in FF, when half their TD's and senators voted against abortion, no action was taken against them as it was considered a vote of conscience and I respect FF leadership for that. Contrast that with the hypocrisy of SF who whipped their TD's and in effect expelled one of them when he refused to go along and yet they allow Paddy Honahan back in and even nominate him for mayor despite his hideous remarks
The child killers claim to be liberal and inclusive but still hold as heros those who murdered people because of their religion.
 
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