FG mugged the middle class and never touched the banks.

[Clonback]

An extract from a letter to the Indo.
"FG have presided over beating after beating for the Irish citizen at the hands of Banks,foreign and domestic,and never lifted a finger to protect us.As international rates plummeted,Irish Banks charged--and continue to charge --gouging rates from variable interest rate holders and small businesses."

Vote FG out on Friday

 

[moneybox]

Vote FG out on Friday

And bring back the crowd that brought us into the mess in the first place

 

[Cervelo]

If the only reason you're voting FG out is the interest rate issue then you know less about politics then I do.
I'm not a FG/Lab supporter but I do feel overall they have done a good job and I'm prepared to let them continue the job.
As Dr Pepper says "sure what can go wrong"

 

[odyssey06]

I'm not in any doubt that FG mugged ordinary Irish citizens - interest rates, water charges, pension levy, not delivering on USC promises - rather than face down Europe over banks, burning bondholders etc etc. As an ordinary Irish citizen, this time my vote will be going elsewhere. Even regardless of the fact that introducing water charges was part of the IMF deal, the absolute omnishambles of its introduction is entirely down to the coalition. No government that made such a mess of that can be reliably expected to do anything to sort out health, crime etc

 

[Brendan Burgess]

the absolute omnishambles of its introduction is entirely down to the coalition. No government that made such a mess of that can be reliably expected to do anything to sort out health, crime etc

This is a very interesting point. There is very little in policy differences between all the parties. They all want to take more people out of the tax net, maintain high taxes on the higher paid and continue to pay very high rates of social welfare.

So maybe we should decide based on which party we think would be the most capable administrators? Had FF been returned to power at the last election, would the introduction of Irish Water have been any more efficient and effective? If Paul Murphy were to be the Minister for the Environment, would the operation of the water system in Ireland be any more efficient or effective? We wouldn't have the water charges or the entity called Irish Water, but we would still have to spend €6 billion on water infrastructure over the next few years.

Brendan

 

[Firefly]

Even regardless of the fact that introducing water charges was part of the IMF deal, the absolute omnishambles of its introduction is entirely down to the coalition. No government that made such a mess of that can be reliably expected to do anything to sort out health, crime etc

I think one of the main reasons water charges have proved so unpopular is that those who are used to getting so much for nothing are now being asked to contribute. Ever notice the types of areas that have the large, anti water charges signs? The water charges are a lot less than the property tax, which in turn is dwarfed by the USC. That is if you are stupid enough to be working and have bought a house in the first place.

I think, overall, FG have done a good job. It's easy to say we should have burned the bond holders, but the consensus is that the net cost of "bailing out the banks" is around 45bn. A nice wedge to be sure, but this only represents 25% of our national debt....

 

[Steven Barrett]

This is a very interesting point. There is very little in policy differences between all the parties. They all want to take more people out of the tax net, maintain high taxes on the higher paid and continue to pay very high rates of social welfare.

So maybe we should decide based on which party we think would be the most capable administrators? Had FF been returned to power at the last election, would the introduction of Irish Water have been any more efficient and effective? If Paul Murphy were to be the Minister for the Environment, would the operation of the water system in Ireland be any more efficient or effective? We wouldn't have the water charges or the entity called Irish Water, but we would still have to spend €6 billion on water infrastructure over the next few years.

Brendan

When the real administrators are the civil service, who are there regardless of which party is in power...so does it make a difference at all?

 

[odyssey06]

I think it's possible to coherently defend a proper and efficient system for charging for water use (though I personally am not convinced of its necessity given that when introduced in UK, consumption dropped by 10% - versus the 40% being lost here to leaky pipes for last 20 years). I think Irish Water is indefensible.

I think for two reasons FF would not have made quite such a mess of its introduction:
(1) They would have had more experienced ministers overseeing its introduction. The Coalition brought very little ministerial experience to the table. That said, in the UK the Conservative\LibDem brought almost none in 2010 and yet seemed to manage capably.
(2) Fianna Fail would have been much closer (by necessity) to the possible public backlash against the charges (no landslide majority) and would have been more careful about anything that would spook the horses, so to speak.

IF in government this time around, would FF bring the same level of experience? No, think it's fairly thin on the ground with this front bench.
But, if we did get a FG \ FF coalition, I wonder if the Fianna Failers especially would try to use competence and be more mindful of public opinion in their decisions to distinguish themselves from FG ministers - as it would be hard to distinguish on policy.

 

[odyssey06]

When the real administrators are the civil service, who are there regardless of which party is in power...so does it make a difference at all?

That's obviously a part of it, but the way Phil Hogan on behalf of the coalition rail roaded in water charges in total disregard of public opposition to it's mechanics (as opposed to the principle of it) seemed to be under political control.

 

[odyssey06]

I think one of the main reasons water charges have proved so unpopular is that those who are used to getting so much for nothing are now being asked to contribute. Ever notice the types of areas that have the large, anti water charges signs? The water charges are a lot less than the property tax, which in turn is dwarfed by the USC. That is if you are stupid enough to be working and have bought a house in the first place.
I think, overall, FG have done a good job. It's easy to say we should have burned the bond holders, but the consensus is that the net cost of "bailing out the banks" is around 45bn. A nice wedge to be sure, but this only represents 25% of our national debt....

Except that FG promised to abolish USC, and promised to make bondholders share in the losses and were elected on that basis. Whatever job they did, and I don't think they did a good one (see Irish Water), it was not the job they said they would do. So I'm not sure what I'd be voting for if I voted for them again.

I don't approve of that, I think it is fundamentally bad for democracy. Furthermore, they have made so many needless mistakes and own goals (appointments to state boards and the seanad etc) they have not done enough to deserve re-election in my view which is why I won't be voting for them again.
Together FG and Labour look set to lose 20% out of the total electorate - 20% who voted for them last time out.
The Conservative\LibDem coalition who also had to make tough economic decisions, didn't take that kind of damage; although the Lib Dems were hit with seat losses and the Conservatives were helped by having an unimpressive main opposition leader. By contrast I think most commentators have said that Michael Martin was the most impressive performer in the leader debates.

 

[Leo]

An extract from a letter to the Indo.
"FG have presided over beating after beating for the Irish citizen at the hands of Banks,foreign and domestic,and never lifted a finger to protect us.As international rates plummeted,Irish Banks charged--and continue to charge --gouging rates from variable interest rate holders and small businesses."

Vote FG out on Friday

I'd never make a decision on something as trivial as breakfast let alone government based on a letter to one of the papers.

 

[so-crates]

I have to agree with Cervelo. Your premise is flawed. FG/Lab have done a good job under very difficult circumstances and have proven to be sensible and measured, taking unpopular steps for the good of the country instead of playing the populist card. FF on the other hand have a history of crashing Ireland, in the 1930's they decimated the country in the prosecution of a pointless "Ecomonic "War"" - out of that they basically set up a vulture fund by buying up the remaining debt of Irish farmers to the British Crown (debt accrued purchasing the land they farmed financed by very long term low cost loans provided by the goverment - as an example... Ashbourne: 1885 - £5m - 4%- 49 years, further acts with larger fund values followed in 1887, 1890, 1903 & 1909). All for the princely sum of £10m. Dev's vulture fund continued to receive payments from farmers across the country well into the 1960's. Having destroyed the farmer's access to market with their pointless war they then proceeded to extract their pound(s) of flesh from them for the next 20 years. The state pocketed the write-down. In 1977, a significant watershed in FF control , they promised the sun, the moon and the stars and I think managed to actually deliver it - but only at enormous cost to us (anyone fancy the 12% + mortgage rates?). Their most recent debacle has not left my memory - though many seem to be in a forgive and forget mood. We've a bad habit of kicking them out when they hurt us and re-electing them again later when they make puppy eyes and say "sorry". We've given them too many chances - we need to stop behaving like victims.

And if I am in no mood to vote FF, why would I ever consider voting for their scary older brother? The one with guns and a criminal record? The pseudo-socialists espousing isolationism? We deserve better than revisiting the moribund economy Dev fostered with similar notions.

As for the loony left, the Anti-Reality Alliance and the Politics Before People offer nothing. Leaving aside the obvious example of what a good job Syriza did in crashing the Greeks out of growth and the bailout exit .... The Anti-Reality Alliance want to institute a "mass party for the 99%" - so what they are promising is a single-party state. Amazing how many times those particular philosophies have proved disastrous in other countries. Every single example of a socialist state that has ever occurred in history ends up a big man patronage state whereby the aggrandisement of the new king takes paramount importance. Who needs that sort of crap?

 

[odyssey06]

I have to agree with Cervelo. Your premise is flawed. FG/Lab have done a good job under very difficult circumstances and have proven to be sensible and measured, taking unpopular steps for the good of the country instead of playing the populist card. FF on the other hand...

I agree with almost everything in your post after the ellipsis... But I can't look at Irish Water and see anything about it that remotely qualifies as 'good job', 'sensible' or 'measured'. Ditto for the pension levy.

FG may (or may not be) the least worst of the main parties, and that could be a reason to vote for them - but that's a different argument to saying that the reason to vote for them is because they did a good job. Purely judged on what they did in office, I couldn't vote them back in.

ps actually I'm voting Renua #1 and Independent Alliance #2.

 

[Firefly]

@so-crates - excellent post

 

[cremeegg]

I'm not in any doubt that FG mugged ordinary Irish citizens - interest rates, water charges, pension levy, not delivering on USC promises - rather than face down Europe over banks, burning bondholders etc etc.

What you say is true, but it could have been much worse, they could have tried and failed to face down the ECB and bondholders. Like Greece.

Even regardless of the fact that introducing water charges was part of the IMF deal, the absolute omnishambles of its introduction is entirely down to the coalition. No government that made such a mess of that can be reliably expected to do anything to sort out health, crime etc

I agree with this analysis as well. But it makes me glad that the govt didn't try to "face down Europe" imagine the mess they could have made of that. They couldn't even introduce Irish Water much less "face down Europe"

 

[Cervelo]

I see we have a "Castlebar Whinger"

 

[Purple]

An extract from a letter to the Indo.
"FG have presided over beating after beating for the Irish citizen at the hands of Banks,foreign and domestic,and never lifted a finger to protect us.As international rates plummeted,Irish Banks charged--and continue to charge --gouging rates from variable interest rate holders and small businesses."

Vote FG out on Friday

If anyone was mugged it was high earners and people with private pensions.
We are now closer to a communist state than at any time in our history. Equality now means equality of outcomes; if you work hard the state takes over half your income. If you never work the state gives you all of your income. People who work for 40 years and lose their job get the same, or more likely less, than people who have never worked. There is no individual responsibility and our new "rights based society" means that nobody has a duty to work and contribute to society if they don't want to but if they choose to do so they will be punished relative to how hard they work.
The options are to maintain this system or make it even worse. I hope my children emigrate.

 

[so-crates]

I agree with almost everything in your post after the ellipsis... But I can't look at Irish Water and see anything about it that remotely qualifies as 'good job', 'sensible' or 'measured'. Ditto for the pension levy.

FG may (or may not be) the least worst of the main parties, and that could be a reason to vote for them - but that's a different argument to saying that the reason to vote for them is because they did a good job. Purely judged on what they did in office, I couldn't vote them back in.

ps actually I'm voting Renua #1 and Independent Alliance #2.

Aside from the sustained negative media campaign Irish Water have been subjected to what exactly do you know about them? My only gripe with them is something that was out of their control - the charges should be usage based. Other than that, when you look at what they have actually done (as opposed to reading what the newspapers choose to report) they have a good track record. Boil water notices have been minimised or eliminated in several areas, especially Roscommon. New waste water treatment facilities are being opened up across the country at a previously unachievable rate - with the latest industry technology and they have actually started to address the severe issues of severe constraint in the Dublin water supply. None of which is allowed more than a page 5 in newspapers. Getting bogged down in an agenda set by vociferous, loony left politicos and using Irish Water as a kicking target is not sensible.

 

[Purple]

I agree on Irish Water. So far they have done a good job. It's not their fault they were stuffed with thousands of staff that they didn't want or need or that the environmentally sound idea of a basic free water allowance with a usage based charge on top of that has been changed to a tax which serves no environmental purpose.

 

[odyssey06]

I agree on Irish Water. So far they have done a good job. It's not their fault they were stuffed with thousands of staff that they didn't want or need or that the environmentally sound idea of a basic free water allowance with a usage based charge on top of that has been changed to a tax which serves no environmental purpose.

But that's exactly what I mean, that's how the Coalition setup Irish Water. When I look at Irish Water, that's what I see.