Farmers protests.

[Sunny]

If farmers want to protest, then they have every right to March on the streets to government buildings and make their voices heard. They do not have the right to block Dublin Port and the M50 and cause huge disruption to thousands of people. They can stick their beef now. Bring in the Brazilian beef I say. We can turn the beef farms into forests.

My sister in law was in Dublin today getting chemotherapy. She has to give up trying to get home and get a hotel because a bunch of selfish tossers decided that it wasnt enough to protest in dublin city centre. No they had bring misery to thousands of ordinary people.

 

[odyssey06]

If they want to protest effectively, let them ambush whatever shiny election photo op a party leader or minister has arranged.
Let them swarm TD's constituency offices.
I don't know what they think they are going to achieve with this except spreading disruption and misery around. They should be in jail for these stunts.

 

[mathepac]

I subsidise the low-cost diesel for their massive tractors. I subsidise the low motor-tax for these work vehicles. I subsidise their subsidies and the farmers' dole and the other backhanders they get. Bring in the Brazilizn beef or switch to eating fish.

As the subsidies they receive for the tractors are to have them used to work the land, will we see the government look for claw-backs now they've been used for activities not designated? Will we hell!

 

[Purple]

I subsidise the low-cost diesel for their massive tractors. I subsidise the low motor-tax for these work vehicles. I subsidise their subsidies and the farmers' dole and the other backhanders they get. Bring in the Brazilizn beef or switch to eating fish.

As the subsidies they receive for the tractors are to have them used to work the land, will we see the government look for claw-backs now they've been used for activities not designated? Will we hell!

The feed their cows eat comes from Brazil anyway so Irish beef isn't as green as people claim (though it is greener than most).

 

[Seagull]

Why were they not properly policed, and prevented from breaking driving legislation?

 

[Sunny]

They didn't even charge them to use the port tunnel.

 

[WolfeTone]

I can empathise with the sentiments above.

However, to my mind, what appears to be occurring is a battle between the long-term decline (or radical overhaul) of the beef industry and the short-mid term necessity of income/job survival.
The writing is on the wall for the beef industry (in EU).
Trends toward vegan diets, animal rights and welfare, climate change are pushing prices downward.
Knowing farmers are caught in the protectionist scheme of EU subsidies, and in being in best position to detect consumer trends, retailers are driving down returns to farmers while maintaining maximum profit margins (if not increasing) from consumers.

This is ok, its the free market, survival of the fittest etc.

The protests, while causing inconvenience (sometimes to real detriment) are simply a reaction to the real detrimental decline and bleak outlook of the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people in this country.
What the farmers are doing now, and for some time before, is signalling to their wider community of the (their perceived) decimation in the years ahead.

So while what they are doing is disruptive and inconvenient, (acknowledging the real inconvenience of hospital and medical appointments) spare a thought to the collective train of thought that see's nothing but bleakness ahead for their families and communities.
They are reacting no differently to most people who, collectively, are fearing the worst.

 

[cremeegg]

The writing has been on the walk for Irish beef farms for decades. The day of reckoning has been held at bay up to now by massive subsidies.

In that time many farmers have taken the opportunity to diversify or seek employment elsewhere.

What we are seeing now is those who refused to change and have taken subsidies for years raging at the end of the road approaching.

 

[Delboy]

Have any of the advocates here of bringing in Brazilian beef ever actually tasted it? Are you aware of what pharma products the farmers over there use while rearing the cattle?
And what of the Amazon forests being cut down as the Brazilian beef industry grows?

 

[WolfeTone]

With respect, I profoundly disagree @cremeegg
The "writing on the wall for decades" is not true.
The Irish beef sector, since joining the EU nearly five decades ago has thrived (despite all the intermittent protests).
Beef farmers, the beef industry, and the Irish economy have done very well comparatively.

It is natural for people to cling to what they know has benefited them in past, particularly when they have invested heavily. Worse is knowing that it is appears seemingly natural that when the fortunes of others are down, there is no shortage of kickers willing to put the boot in.

 

[WolfeTone]

I subsidise the low-cost diesel for their massive tractors. I subsidise the low motor-tax for these work vehicles. I subsidise their subsidies and the farmers' dole and the other backhanders they get. Bring in the Brazilizn beef or switch to eating fish

Respectfully, you subsidize sod all. Take a look at your paid tax, chances are you, your family, your community are subsidized.
The reason you can afford an abundance of fresh meat at relatively stable prices, daily, weekly, yearly etc has nothing to do with with your "subsidies".

 

[mathepac]

Have any of the advocates here of bringing in Brazilian beef ever actually tasted it? Are you aware of what pharma products the farmers over there use while rearing the cattle?
And what of the Amazon forests being cut down as the Brazilian beef industry grows?

Pharma also produces the tonnes of artificial fertilisers used by Irish farmers to promote the crops of grass needed to feed Irish beef and the tonnes of pesticides and herbicides used in intensive meat farming here, as well as the chemicals fed to cattle, poultry and sheep to keep them disease-free in intensive environments. Have you noticed the metres of black plastic blowing funereally from hedge-rows? They come from farmers, wrapping from silage.

Respectfully, you subsidize sod all. Take a look at your paid tax, chances are you, your family, your community are subsidized.
The reason you can afford an abundance of fresh meat at relatively stable prices, daily, weekly, yearly etc has nothing to do with with "subsidies".

The cheques in the post have been arriving in Irish farmers post for decades. These are the direct subsidies, I don't get them. The difference between what I pay for diesel and motor-tax for my car and what farmers pay for the tractors they used to inconvenience their customers on the roads are indirect subsidies. For decades farmers and their families magically qualified for full State retirement pensions, never having paid a red cent in PRSI or "stamps". PAYE workers like myself subsidise these.

 

[WolfeTone]

The difference between what I pay for

I understand the sentiment, but its fools gold.
As much as you can point to favourable advantages for farmers via diesel prices, similarly favourable advantages can be pointed to having stable, abundant food supplies and prices for the population as a whole.
There is simply no comparison in my opinion.
As such, ALL of the favourable advantage is with the consumer via the abundance, then the retailer via the profit margin, then the producer via reasonable to high standards of living.
If those standards of living are threatened, or jeopardized, except protest, no more no less if the population couldn't afford to feed itself.

 

[Delboy]

Pharma also produces the tonnes of artificial fertilisers used by Irish farmers to promote the crops of grass needed to feed Irish beef and the tonnes of pesticides and herbicides used in intensive meat farming here, as well as the chemicals fed to cattle, poultry and sheep to keep them disease-free in intensive environments. Have you noticed the metres of black plastic blowing funereally from hedge-rows? They come from farmers, wrapping from silage.

Funnily enough, I haven't. And I head West a lot over the course of the year. Perhaps you visit a particular blackspot for that type of littering but there's no 'funerals' hanging from the ditches where I grew up.
Perhaps you are exaggerating a tad there?

Can I ask are you a vegetarian because you seem to be particularly militant/animated about this particular subject?

 

[mathepac]

Head West from where? I live in the middle of beef/milk farming country and the long black streamers are a constant feature along motorways and major and minor roads.

Like most humans I am omnivorous, but the heavily subsidised intensive methods used by food farmers must stop before we turn our island into stinking, barren deserts as has happened in Egypt parts of Southern California, Australia and South America. Farmers are no longer guardians of the land for future generations, they are short-term investors aimed at maximising the crop from season-to-season, by any means possible.

 

[cremeegg]

Respectfully, you subsidize sod all. Take a look at your paid tax, chances are you, your family, your community are subsidized.
The reason you can afford an abundance of fresh meat at relatively stable prices, daily, weekly, yearly etc has nothing to do with with your "subsidies".

Its bad enough that farmers are so heavily subsidised, a van driver pays tax on his diesel a farmer does not thats a subsidy. But the fact that people try to deny the existence of the subsidy makes rational debate difficult

Meat would be much cheaper if restrictions on third country suppliers were removed. And poor African and Latin. American farmers could make a better living to boot.

 

[WolfeTone]

a van driver pays tax on his diesel a farmer does not thats a subsidy. But the fact that people try to deny the existence of the subsidy makes rational debate difficult

There is no denial of the subsidy. Its the purpose of the subsidy relative to the thinking along the lines of "my taxes pay for....(any innumerable and inexhaustible amount of public and welfare services) ".

They dont. They pay for sod all.

Your taxes, my taxes, the neighbors taxes etc, on an individual basis pay for diddly squat.
If anyone of us were to disappear tomorrow with our tax contributions nobody would bat an eyelid.

Meat would be much cheaper if restrictions on third country suppliers were removed. And poor African and Latin. American farmers could make a better living to boot.

Perhaps, perhaps not.
My only point is that in the midst of the inconveniences of the farmer protests is a collective of people who are heavily invested in their industry, the returns of which are being squeezed, and that equitable or similar price drops in the supermarket, or restaurants, are not so obvious.
Which challenges the notion that if South American producers could provide cheaper beef, would retailers/restaurants necessarily pass on the benefits? There is reasonable evidence that they would not.

 

[john luc]

I will throw in the old adage, be careful what you wish for.

 

[cremeegg]

There is no denial of the subsidy.

You may not be denying it, but many farmers seem to be in denial that their neighbours subsidise their lifestyle, compulsorily through their taxes.

If anyone of us were to disappear tomorrow with our tax contributions nobody would bat an eyelid.

Unfortunately Revenue don't seem to see it that way.

Or to put it another way I have in the past, and I am sure many other posters on here currently, paid amounts in tax equal to the salary of a Garda recruit or a newly qualified school teacher. To suggest that my taxes pay for sod all is disenheartening.

My only point is that in the midst of the inconveniences of the farmer protests is a collective of people who are heavily invested in their industry, the returns of which are being squeezed.

That was the case 20 years ago, what we are seeing now is the farmers who spent 20 years of subsidy without a thought to the day it would run out, and now instead of being prepared for the future they are demanding subsidies run forever.

Which challenges the notion that if South American producers could provide cheaper beef, would retailers/restaurants necessarily pass on the benefits? There is reasonable evidence that they would not.

Quite possibly they would not, but consumers would be spending their money as they wished in supermarkets or restaurants, not having it taken from them in the form of taxes to subsidise the lifestyles of farmers.

 

[WolfeTone]

You may not be denying it, but many farmers seem to be in denial that their neighbours subsidise their lifestyle, compulsorily through their taxes.

Farmers have been the most vocal about allowing their produce to be priced in free market terms of supply and demand.
Its the rest of society, via government interventions, that persist with good reason for subsidized food supplies.

Unfortunately Revenue don't seem to see it that way.

I was thinking in terms of existence.

I am sure many other posters on here currently, paid amounts in tax equal to the salary of a Garda recruit or a newly qualified school teacher.

Yes, like I said, on an individual basis it pays for sod all.
Certainly nowhere near, by some considerable distance, to subsidising food supplies - the result of which is abundant food in supermarkets with stable prices.

That was the case 20 years ago, what we are seeing now is the farmers who spent 20 years of subsidy without a thought to the day it would run out, and now instead of being prepared for the future they are demanding subsidies run forever

Farmers would be quite happy to allow their produce be priced in free market supply and demand. Its the rest of society, via government, that has concocted the concept of subsidized food produce.

Quite possibly they would not, but consumers would be spending their money as they wished in supermarkets or restaurants, not having it taken from them in the form of taxes to subsidise the lifestyles of farmers.

You are suggesting that not only does your taxes pay for the salary of a teacher, or a garda, it also subsidizes farmer incomes?
I respectfully disagree. The subsidizing of food supplies is only achievable through the collective population contributing, including taxes on farm incomes.
You no more subsidize food prices than farmers do themselves, and some of them also contribute to the salaries of a teacher, or a garda.