fair deal scheme and transfer of home

theroux said:
I just spoke to the HSE and they have confirmed that the 3 year cap would still apply as long as its still her primary residence.
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Did they fully understand that your mother would be transferring the house to you now ?
 
Slim said:
Interesting! Are you saying that a transferred house, having been transferred within 5 years and therfefore assessable, will not be regarded as a PPR and so the 3 year cap would not apply? Seems harsh.
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It does seem harsh, but thats what I was told by the HSE when considering our options.
 
Slim said:
Interesting! Are you saying that a transferred house, having been transferred within 5 years and therfefore assessable, will not be regarded as a PPR and so the 3 year cap would not apply? Seems harsh.
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Thats what I have been told.

You mention on the other tread that you get your info from an expert on Fair Deal, perhaps you could ask him/her to clarify this position as it seems
theroux and myself have been given different answers by the HSE on this issue.
 
The paragraph below seems to say the principal residence ceases to be a relevant asset if the person concerned has received care services for a period of 3 years. In other words the 3 year cap would apply if the home has been transferred.

What I was told by the HSE when considering our options was if the home was sold or transferred, then for assessment purposes it’s value would be like any other asset and assessed indefinitely. It now appears this is not correct.

6. The interest of a person in a principal residence, or in a transferred
asset which qualifies as a principal residence, shall not be or
shall cease to be a relevant asset where the person concerned is
receiving or has received—
(a) care services,
(b) transitional care services within the meaning of section 13,
(c) services in a nursing home which services would, if they
had been provided after the coming into operation of the
definition of “approved nursing home”, have come within
the meaning of the definition of “long-term residential
care services”, or
(d) any combination of the services referred to in paragraphs
(a) to (c),
for a period of 3 years (which period need not be continuous).

See page 64 here;

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a1509.pdf
 
That is my interpretation; I have no legal background whatsoever.

Given that there is potentially a lot at stake, it might be wise to ask the question in writing and have confirmation in writing before making the transfer.
 
Hi Theroux, TwoFor1

I think that two issues are being confused:

Financial Assessment of Contributions; and

Ancillary State Support, aka Nursing Home Loan

Financial Assessment of Contributions
You are correct that the imputed value of a person’s principal private residence or one that has been transferred during the 5-year look-back period will be disregarded in the financial assessment of contributions after 3 years -Sch 1, Part 3, section 6.


Nursing Home Loan

This is covered by Part 3 of the Act.

Part 3, section 15, specifically excludes from this loan “transferred assets” i.e. any assets which have been transferred during the 5-year look-back period.

The reason for this is that the applicant has to consent to a charging order (similar to a mortgage) being placed on the property, in order for Revenue to recoup the loan on the death of the applicant.

Obviously, this cannot happen if the applicant no longer owns the property.
 
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twofor1 said:
Thats what I have been told.

You mention on the other tread that you get your info from an expert on Fair Deal, perhaps you could ask him/her to clarify this position as it seems
theroux and myself have been given different answers by the HSE on this issue.
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Sorry for not getting back sooner. I have checked it with my source who is adamant that the 3 year cap will apply even where the PPR was transferred within the preceding 5 years.
 
Slim,
That is correct. In determining the amount of contributions the 3-year cap applies to transferred assets - Sch 1, Part 3, section 6.
However, Theroux’s question is about whether his mother can defer payment of those contributions under the Nursing Home Loan Scheme.
Part 3, section 15 of the Act seems to affirm that she cannot.
I think this is what he wants to be checked out.


 
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Slim said:
Sorry for not getting back sooner. I have checked it with my source who is adamant that the 3 year cap will apply even where the PPR was transferred within the preceding 5 years.
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Hi slim,

My mother is in a nursing home at moment paralysed on left side and wheelchair bound .this happened in dec 2012.father was main carer for her till got sick (diabetes) last oct 14 .We had to put her in home as no one to take care of her.We are farmers and land has been transferred from parents to myself and 2 brothers in dec 14 so only asset parents have is family home and 70 k savings which is dropping fast with home payments of 900 per week.Could you ask you fair deal expert where we stand as we are at our wits end ringing people and don't know where we stand regarding the fair deal scheme.Thanks for your help
 
Cavan 123 cars said:
we are at our wits end ringing people and don't know where we stand regarding the fair deal scheme.
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My understanding is the financial assessment will take into account the family farm as it was transferred in the last 5 years. If your parents suffered sudden illnesses or disabilities and you and your brothers are family successors continuing to run the farm, then the 3 year cap might apply to the farm as it does to the family home. As the farm has already been transferred, the 3 year cap might apply anyway.

All the information you need can be found in the link below, pages 6/7 explain your contribution and when the 3 year cap can extend to farms. The HSE nursing home support offices are also listed at the back with phone numbers, I found my local office very helpful with any queries I had when making applications for Fair Deal.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/NHSS%20Information%20Booklet.pdf

Looks like your mothers annual contribution will be 80% of her income indefinitely as long as she is in a nursing home plus 7.5% of half the value of the home and farm for the first three years only (Assuming the farm qualifies one way or another for the 3 year cap)

The €70K savings should be disregarded as it is below the threshold.
 
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Cavan 123 cars said:
Hi slim,

My mother is in a nursing home at moment paralysed on left side and wheelchair bound .this happened in dec 2012.father was main carer for her till got sick (diabetes) last oct 14 .We had to put her in home as no one to take care of her.We are farmers and land has been transferred from parents to myself and 2 brothers in dec 14 so only asset parents have is family home and 70 k savings which is dropping fast with home payments of 900 per week.Could you ask you fair deal expert where we stand as we are at our wits end ringing people and don't know where we stand regarding the fair deal scheme.Thanks for your help
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Sorry, didn't pick up this post til Friday. According to my source:

If the family were to submit an Application for Fair Deal, A Care Needs Assessment would be carried out on the Applicant. If the Applicant was deemed as needing Long Term Care then the Financial Assessment would be carried out. A couple contribute 40% of their Joint Pensions. Then the first 72,000.00 of any Cash Assets or Property Assets are not included in the Assessment. Anything over this amount of 72,000.00 is assessed at 3.75%. Any Property, Land etc that has not been transferred 5 years prior to applying to the Scheme is also included in the Financial Assessment - documentary evidence of the amount received or the market value of the Asset at the time of sale or transfer must be submitted. There is a 3 year limit on the Property which means that there is a Review done after 3 years and the value of the Principal Property is taken off the Financial Assessment but any other Property or Land will remain @3.75%. Theyallow for Prescription Costs and Property Tax.
Looks like the transfer is too late to avoid assessment. Also, even after 5 years from date of transfer, it
will continue to be assessed as income or capital.
 
Slim said:
Sorry, didn't pick up this post til Friday. According to my source:

If the family were to submit an Application for Fair Deal, A Care Needs Assessment would be carried out on the Applicant. If the Applicant was deemed as needing Long Term Care then the Financial Assessment would be carried out. A couple contribute 40% of their Joint Pensions. Then the first 72,000.00 of any Cash Assets or Property Assets are not included in the Assessment. Anything over this amount of 72,000.00 is assessed at 3.75%. Any Property, Land etc that has not been transferred 5 years prior to applying to the Scheme is also included in the Financial Assessment - documentary evidence of the amount received or the market value of the Asset at the time of sale or transfer must be submitted. There is a 3 year limit on the Property which means that there is a Review done after 3 years and the value of the Principal Property is taken off the Financial Assessment but any other Property or Land will remain @3.75%. Theyallow for Prescription Costs and Property Tax.
Looks like the transfer is too late to avoid assessment. Also, even after 5 years from date of transfer, it
will continue to be assessed as income or capital.
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Thanks Slim/Twofor1,

Are you basically saying we won't get the 3 year cap for family farms and even after 5 years we would still have to pay until all of the farm is sold which is our livelihoods now.Surely their has to be a way around this as we have our houses built on these farms etc.I am 42 and if I sign it to my 18 year old son will he have to pay also as he is training to be a farmer.JUst sounds so unfair to have to sell our heritage which is in the family almost 100 years.PLease reply folks I'm really worried now
 
It looks that way as the farm is regarded as your parent's asset and will be assessed as long as they are alive. It is a really tricky area and you should contact your local HSE office for detailed information.
 
theroux said:
I just spoke to the HSE and they have confirmed that the 3 year cap would still apply as long as its still her primary residence.

Also the value would be locked at the transferred value.
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Could I ask you a question? My mom has been deemed as needing nursing home care and is applying for fair deal. I'm very confused on what's going to happen to the property and was wandering if you could give me the contact details of who you spoke to in the HSE regarding this? Maybe they could give me some clarity?
 
roisin11 said:
Could I ask you a question? My mom has been deemed as needing nursing home care and is applying for fair deal. I'm very confused on what's going to happen to the property and was wandering if you could give me the contact details of who you spoke to in the HSE regarding this? Maybe they could give me some clarity?
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Hi. It depends on where you live. If you look up www.hse.ie and search for 'Fair Deal' you should be led to your local HSE office which will have an office that can help. Here's the link http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/
 
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