Extension and renovation costs

Browneyedgirl4 said:
I know there is a one stop shop scheme but you have to use one of their contractors in addition to your own builder and them it gets messy when there’s an issue down the Line
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The One Stop Shop scheme is not designed to be used in conjunction with extension work.

If your proposed extension/ renovation is large enough, you must ensure the entire finished house will achieve B2 or better regardless of availability or qualification for any grants.
 
As an update: we just gave up on this.

Instead we are doing:
  1. 2 new bathrooms - done as of today (28k, high spec)
  2. Reconfigure downstairs layout to optimise space (underway)
  3. New inset stove (next week)
  4. Retrofit via SEAI registered firm - net cost will be about 70k (full external wrap, new windows throughout, doors, attic reinsulation, new heating systems\rads\heat pump etc). We have signed up but no dates yet.
  5. New kitchen
  6. Full rewire
So we don't get the additional space - but we do get the modernisation, retrofit and new home feel. I don't yet have the exact numbers for this but my current guestimate is about 145k, saving us 200k (and also not having to move out for several months).

The builder who quoted the 350k didn't even return my two calls to say 'thanks but no thanks', eventually just left him a message and never heard a word!
 
Truffade, thanks for the information.

We are at an early stage of considering a deep retrofit on our 1930s style farmhouse.
After reviewing the calculator on Energia it looked like €60k net would be very approximate figure we would need, so we started saving hard over the last two months.

I just happened to check the figures a few days ago and the calculator is now showing €90k net for the same activities.

Very disheartening to see the figures raise so high and has us thinking to do upgrades in a piecemeal fashion which is not how we wanted to do it.
 
Savvy said:
Truffade, thanks for the information.

We are at an early stage of considering a deep retrofit on our 1930s style farmhouse.
After reviewing the calculator on Energia it looked like €60k net would be very approximate figure we would need, so we started saving hard over the last two months.

I just happened to check the figures a few days ago and the calculator is now showing €90k net for the same activities.

Very disheartening to see the figures raise so high and has us thinking to do upgrades in a piecemeal fashion which is not how we wanted to do it.
Click to expand...

From chatting with the retrofit contractor, windows seem to be by far the most expensive part of the job and they are hard to source at the moment. We're going via Superhomes.

Looks like the retrofit will be the last part of the job in any case.
At this point:
  1. Bathrooms - done
  2. Inset stove - done
  3. Downstairs reconfiguration - mostly done, just waiting on a few bits
  4. Full rewire - last 2 weeks of July
  5. Kitchen - 2nd week of August
  6. Retrofit...who knows. Awaiting Superhomes,
  7. Tidy up work...new internal doors, flooring etc
It's a slight pain dealing with different contractors (and living in somewhat of a building site) but we're getting there.

We were quoted 13k (!) to paint the house internally which nearly made me fall off my chair. Doing it myself instead!
 
Truffade said:
From chatting with the retrofit contractor, windows seem to be by far the most expensive part of the job and they are hard to source at the moment. We're going via Superhomes.

Looks like the retrofit will be the last part of the job in any case.
At this point:
  1. Bathrooms - done
  2. Inset stove - done
  3. Downstairs reconfiguration - mostly done, just waiting on a few bits
  4. Full rewire - last 2 weeks of July
  5. Kitchen - 2nd week of August
  6. Retrofit...who knows. Awaiting Superhomes,
  7. Tidy up work...new internal doors, flooring etc
It's a slight pain dealing with different contractors (and living in somewhat of a building site) but we're getting there.

We were quoted 13k (!) to paint the house internally which nearly made me fall off my chair. Doing it myself instead!
Click to expand...
Latest update:
  1. Bathrooms - done. 27k (upstairs only)
  2. Inset stove - done. 3k
  3. Downstairs reconfiguration, building work - close to done, main thing remaining is to fit new downstairs WC under stairs. Approx 17k
  4. Full rewire - done. Seriously messy job and we were very wise to schedule for when we were on our holidays! 8.7k (our original guy who quoted 15k let us down and we found a new guy at short notice, worked out very well and we got lucky here)
  5. Kitchen - done as of today! 25k including some fairly top-end appliances.
  6. Retrofit...just picked windows\doors today. They say we may be looking at 12\14 weeks for the windows to arrive so I think we would be lucky to have this done pre-Xmas. Approved for our grants and net cost to us will be ~65k (depends what style windows we end up with)
  7. Tidy up work...new internal doors, flooring etc. Will do post retrofit.
Progress! This incremental approach is OK if you're prepared to live in a semi-building site state for a few months - and you line up your tradespeople accordingly. The guy making it all come together for us is our builder who pops in on average 1 day a week. It's a not a 'building job' as such given that we are not altering the external footprint of the house but we've found him invaluable.
 
Truffade said:
Latest update:
  1. Bathrooms - done. 27k (upstairs only)
  2. Inset stove - done. 3k
  3. Downstairs reconfiguration, building work - close to done, main thing remaining is to fit new downstairs WC under stairs. Approx 17k
  4. Full rewire - done. Seriously messy job and we were very wise to schedule for when we were on our holidays! 8.7k (our original guy who quoted 15k let us down and we found a new guy at short notice, worked out very well and we got lucky here)
  5. Kitchen - done as of today! 25k including some fairly top-end appliances.
  6. Retrofit...just picked windows\doors today. They say we may be looking at 12\14 weeks for the windows to arrive so I think we would be lucky to have this done pre-Xmas. Approved for our grants and net cost to us will be ~65k (depends what style windows we end up with)
  7. Tidy up work...new internal doors, flooring etc. Will do post retrofit.
Progress! This incremental approach is OK if you're prepared to live in a semi-building site state for a few months - and you line up your tradespeople accordingly. The guy making it all come together for us is our builder who pops in on average 1 day a week. It's a not a 'building job' as such given that we are not altering the external footprint of the house but we've found him invaluable.
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Hi Truffade. Fair play it sounds like you have carried out a great job project managing as much as possible. We are undertaking a very similar amount of work on a bungalow with a large attic and plan to arrange our own tradespeople and (hopefully!) manage to stay in the house during the refurb... I wonder would you be able to pm the details of the builder you are using? As he sounds like exactly what we are after.. No worries if not. Hope you get everything done in good time without any headaches.
 
roundtheblock said:
Hi Truffade. Fair play it sounds like you have carried out a great job project managing as much as possible. We are undertaking a very similar amount of work on a bungalow with a large attic and plan to arrange our own tradespeople and (hopefully!) manage to stay in the house during the refurb... I wonder would you be able to pm the details of the builder you are using? As he sounds like exactly what we are after.. No worries if not. Hope you get everything done in good time without any headaches.
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Sorry, only saw this now.

He'll be finished with us this week but he did say he has more work than he can handle! As my sister was also looking for someone but he said to please not send on his details...sorry.
 
Interesting reading here.

We want to improve energy efficiency in our house but also planning an extension. Managed to get speaking to some companies on the energy side but all said come back when the extension is ready. Which is fine but really struggling with the extension build - no response from companies or no follow up from companies after site visits.

Any tips for engaging a company on the extension front? Any recommended companies serving Kilkenny area?
 
Retrofit now under way - the new windows and doors are in. Quite stark what a difference just this makes to heat retention!
Remainder of the works to begin just after Easter so we're definitely in the home stretch at last. It's been a long 8-9 months but finally all coming together.
 
Be interested in some ballpark figures on the total costs, and some insights on any surprises that arose.

Looking at some of the home renovation/architect programmes on the TV the costs seem enormous on recent programmes. I hadn't watched any in a while and was just staggered at how its risen.
 
Once a grant is involved most construction companies actually adjust upwards (I have seen this first hand with 2 differnt companies one SEAI Appoved and the other not approved and their quotes there was about 200Euro in the difference for a deep retrofit) and that cash is eaten up. Anyone building should wait if they can wait 12/18 months there is a huge correction coming for construction. There is a lot gouging going on and savings being made via energy price drops, fuel price drops and construction raw material prices drops will have to be passed on fairly quickly as construction inputs have for the first time in a long time come down in January of this year

As for construction outputs this is being decimated, construction PMIs have shrank 7 out of the last 8 months.

Ireland BNP Paribas Real Estate Construction PMI - January 2023 Data

The BNP Paribas Real Estate Construction PMI increased to 47.7 in January 2023 from the five-month low of 43.2 in December 2022. This was the 4th consecutive period of contraction in construction activity but the smallest decline in the sequence, due to softer falls in both output and new...
tradingeconomics.com tradingeconomics.com

Construction outputs

Ireland Construction Output - 2022 Data - 2023 Forecast - 2001-2021 Historical

Construction output in Ireland fell 4.5 percent from a year earlier in the third quarter of 2022, after two quarters of growth. A decline in production for both residential (-20.4 percent vs 12.5 percent in Q3) and non-residential (-4.5 percent vs 6.9 percent) building offset a rebound in civil...
tradingeconomics.com tradingeconomics.com

There is a real threat of a lot of construction companies hitting the wall due to the new higher interest rates for borrowing which will bring a lot of cash flow issues and the real threat of modular homes being ramped up in the next couple of years will basically mean that their dinner will be eaten for them if the gouging continues.

www.crowe.com

Cash flow issues facing the construction sector | Crowe Ireland

Our turnaround specialists can deal with the cash flow problems facing the construction sector
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At some point the penny has to drop with the government we are paying the highest prices for construction in the EU . the question they need to ask is WHY.
www.midwestradio.ie

Building costs in Ireland higher than other European countries

The state is paying up to € 138,000 more to build a home than other European countries, according to a new report.A confidential document by the Land Development Agency completed in April 2021, was shared by the Business Post this morning.It measured the cost of building in Naas compared to...
www.midwestradio.ie
 
Will construction costs for home improvements (retrofits, extensions etc) really reduce materially? Yes there will be material price decreases, but we've also just gone through a severe cost of living increasing, a lot of increases are on labour which won't reduce materially in the short term. So what is going to be the long term mean?

My renovation is coming in at about 3k per sq m excluding kitchen. It is probably a medium to high finish (underfloor heating, aluclad etc). It might have been 2500 before Covid and 1500-2,000 post financial crisis?
 
DublinHead54 said:
Will construction costs for home improvements (retrofits, extensions etc) really reduce materially? Yes there will be material price decreases, but we've also just gone through a severe cost of living increasing, a lot of increases are on labour which won't reduce materially in the short term. So what is going to be the long term mean?

My renovation is coming in at about 3k per sq m excluding kitchen. It is probably a medium to high finish (underfloor heating, aluclad etc). It might have been 2500 before Covid and 1500-2,000 post financial crisis?
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We are right up at the top end here with regards to prices. As I say construction costs are now a barrier to construction companies actually working as I said the dynamic of ordering raw materials and the upping of interest rates for cash flow into a lot of these companies is gong to put a lot of construction companies to the wall. What will happen as inflation is already coming down. MoM its down 1%. Last year less than 50% of all employees working in this country received a pay rise so the inflated prices is just that they will have to come down the same way we will see energy and fuel coming down over the next 2 years. But like everything else prices go up fast and are stickier coming back down.

I mean think about an extension most are not really needed its pure vanity. So anyone borrowing for such an extension now if they are not rich they will be borrowing at sky high interest rates so this quelling of demand is also feeding into construction companies slowing right down as can be seen by the CPI and output metrics for construction and this is not just Ireland its global the biggest difference is our price points seem to be way higher than the rest of the EU so there is a hell of a lot more scope for prices to come back down to some kind of normality in this country than else where. We may not see the 1.5 a square meter again but I can see it coming back to somewhere like 2k a square meter but it will take a good year or 2 for some people to cop on that the majority of people in Ireland cannot afford the prices The cost of living crisis is causing lot of people to struggle with the day to day expenses and the big ticket items are first to be cut or put on the back burner when people are struggling. Another indicator of this is new car sales 2022 seen a decrease of new car sales of 10% from 2019 (the last year that did not have any interference from covid)
 
fliball123 said:
We are right up at the top end here with regards to prices. As I say construction costs are now a barrier to construction companies actually working as I said the dynamic of ordering raw materials and the upping of interest rates for cash flow into a lot of these companies is gong to put a lot of construction companies to the wall. What will happen as inflation is already coming down. MoM its down 1%. Last year less than 50% of all employees working in this country received a pay rise so the inflated prices is just that they will have to come down the same way we will see energy and fuel coming down over the next 2 years. But like everything else prices go up fast and are stickier coming back down.

I mean think about an extension most are not really needed its pure vanity. So anyone borrowing for such an extension now if they are not rich they will be borrowing at sky high interest rates so this quelling of demand is also feeding into construction companies slowing right down as can be seen by the CPI and output metrics for construction and this is not just Ireland its global the biggest difference is our price points seem to be way higher than the rest of the EU so there is a hell of a lot more scope for prices to come back down to some kind of normality in this country than else where. We may not see the 1.5 a square meter again but I can see it coming back to somewhere like 2k a square meter but it will take a good year or 2 for some people to cop on that the majority of people in Ireland cannot afford the prices The cost of living crisis is causing lot of people to struggle with the day to day expenses and the big ticket items are first to be cut or put on the back burner when people are struggling. Another indicator of this is new car sales 2022 seen a decrease of new car sales of 10% from 2019 (the last year that did not have any interference from covid)
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Financing costs have been a barrier to development for construction companies for a while, hence the need to presell entire developments to oversees investors.

I am speaking to the small residential builder who generally in my experience operate in one months arrears, i.e. they do the work and bill the client at the end of each month for that month. This shouldn't put every builder under cashflow issues, obviously badly run companies will face more challenge during economic downturns.

I wouldn't say interest rates are sky high, yes they are increasing but we are still below rates offer 20 years ago. A raising interest rate environment does impact affordability and that may slow demand, but I don't think we'll see a material decrease in cost unless builders are willing to take significant pay cuts.
 
DublinHead54 said:
Financing costs have been a barrier to development for construction companies for a while, hence the need to presell entire developments to oversees investors.

I am speaking to the small residential builder who generally in my experience operate in one months arrears, i.e. they do the work and bill the client at the end of each month for that month. This shouldn't put every builder under cashflow issues, obviously badly run companies will face more challenge during economic downturns.

I wouldn't say interest rates are sky high, yes they are increasing but we are still below rates offer 20 years ago. A raising interest rate environment does impact affordability and that may slow demand, but I don't think we'll see a material decrease in cost unless builders are willing to take significant pay cuts.
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Well rates are way up from this time 12 months ago and they are only going to increase throughout 2023 and of course it impacts affordability. If your a person looking to get work done your paying a hell of a lot more for a loan to get the work done and a small extension your talking 60k where as it used to be (say 24 months ago) 30k and then the increase on the interest rates on paying it back. I mean this is also in an environment where cost of living has blown through the roof and its plain to see that big ticket items the nice to haves like the extension and new car are first to go. There will be gut check point for each and every construction company as if they don't take the margin cut then the vast majority of the population cannot afford the new price paradigm and we will see these companies hit the wall unfortunately. The other side of this is construction imputs for the first time are decreasing and usually when things go up they go up quick but are sticky coming down the construction companies would want to be passing these savings on straight away.
 
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fliball123 said:
Well rates are way up from this time 12 months ago and they are only going to increase throughout 2023 and of course it impacts affordability. If your a person looking to get work done your paying a hell of a lot more for a loan to get the work done and a small extension your talking 60k where as it used to be 30k and then the increase on the interest rates on paying it back. I mean this is also in an environment where cost of living has blown through the roof and its plain to see that big ticket items the nice to haves like the extension and new car are first to go. There will be gut check point for each and every construction company as if they don't take the margin cut then the vast majority of the population cannot afford the new price paradigm and we will see these companies hit the wall unfortunately. The other side of this is construction imputs for the first time are decreasing and usually when things go up they go up quick but are sticky coming down the construction companies would want to be passing these savings on straight away.
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Rates were artificially low through monetary policy on the back of a massive economic downturn, the intention by central banks was always to raise them again and planned to do it before Covid.

I don't share the same dooms day scenario as you, I think we are now operating at a new normal of cost levels with some variability. Maybe costs go down 20% and some firms lower their profits etc. However, I don't think construction costs on residential extensions etc have increased 100% per your example. At least in my experience, I'd love for them to be cheaper.
 
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