Exactly why are investors abandoning the banks?

sfag

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... and how much debt can the government take on before a country like ours becomes 'bust' like Argentina?
 
Probably need the ECB to bail us out.

Govt income is currently euro 37b.
 
They are leaving because they fear nationalisation.

As for the debt figure, the market will decide how much we can raise. Italy has a debt to GDP ratio of over 100% and they can still raise money easily enough so we have plenty of leg room. It will obviously get expensive though and obviously interest payments become a burden. Being members of the Eurozone offers Ireland protection that Countries like Argentina didn't have so we are long way off even thinking of defaulting.
 
They dont trust the government when they say they will re-capitalise the banks. They said the same about Anglo-Irish and last minute they decide to nationalise. Investors fear the same will happen with the other banks..

Did anyone see Morgan Kelly's article in the irish times today?
He states that he has it on good authority that the economists in the central bank and the financial department did not want to extend the liability guarantee to Anglo and irish nationwide at the original meeting in September. Cowen and Lenihan supported by central bank governor and financial regulator disagreed and said that it was imperative that they were supported to protect the overall banking system....

His article makes for very interesting reading and if true should see the end of ff government for trying to bail out their banker and property tycoon buddies...

At the very least, Brian Lenihan's flipflopping about recapitalisation and nationalisation of Anglo Irish has caused the current banking meltdown and hopefully will result in FF out of office before year's end. Need a whole new approach with new people at the head of banks and running the economy.
 
"This is the central point about the bailout of Anglo Irish, and one that has not received any attention: the only effect of a bailout is that the Irish taxpayer will make up the losses of Anglo Irish’s bondholders instead of the insurers who had already been paid to underwrite the risk"

If this is true, then why the hell are we guaranteeing Anglo?
 
"This is the central point about the bailout of Anglo Irish, and one that has not received any attention: the only effect of a bailout is that the Irish taxpayer will make up the losses of Anglo Irish’s bondholders instead of the insurers who had already been paid to underwrite the risk"

If this is true, then why the hell are we guaranteeing Anglo?

Can't read the article but I am going to hazard a guess that this is Morgan Kelly? Don't know what he is talking about. Is he talking about credit default swaps or something?
 
Here it is in full Sunny

ANALYSIS: Anglo Irish is poisoning the banking system and is of no systemic importance. It must not be nationalised; it must be allowed to collapse and with it the developers at the heart of the problem, writes Morgan Kelly
YESTERDAY’S CATASTROPHIC collapse of Irish bank shares stems directly from the Government’s proposal to nationalise Anglo Irish Bank. With the Government’s finances already buckling under the collapse of our bubble economy, financial markets began to fear that with the added burden of Anglo’s debt, the Irish State cannot afford to finance itself, let alone support the remaining national banks.
Facing the imminent collapse of the national financial system, the Government needs to perform a ruthless triage. The worthwhile banks need to be maintained by any means necessary, including nationalisation, while Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide must be allowed to collapse.
What began as farce has turned swiftly to catastrophe. Last September the Government casually decided to give a small dig-out to some developer pals by guaranteeing the liabilities of Anglo Irish Bank. This spiralled into a proposed nationalisation that would saddle Irish taxpayers with Anglo’s bad debts, which could easily exceed €20,000 per household, and starve the other, worthwhile, banks of the capital they need to survive.
At the original crisis meeting on September 29th, Brian Cowen claimed that the blanket guarantee to all six banks was given “on the basis of the advice from those who are competent to so advise the Government”.
That does not appear to have been the case.
According to a source of mine very familiar with what happened at the meeting, extending the liability guarantee to Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide was strongly opposed by representatives of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance (who reportedly came into the meeting with a draft Bill to rescue only four institutions). However, I am told they were overruled by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, who were supported by the Financial Regulator and the Governor of the Central Bank on the grounds that a sudden liquidation of Anglo’s assets would not be in the national interest.
It is still worth asking what would have happened if Brian Cowen had listened to the Department of Finance and allowed Anglo Irish to sink? The answer is: very little.
Developers would have gone bust and commercial property would have become more or less worthless, but that is going to happen anyway, with or without Anglo Irish. Depositors of Anglo Irish would have been paid off in full, and the hit would have been taken by the international financial institutions that hold around €22 billion of its bonds.
These bondholders are professional institutional investors who signed up for higher returns on Anglo debt in the knowledge that they were facing higher risks. They are, moreover, insured against their losses through insurance contracts called Credit Default Swaps.
This is the central point about the bailout of Anglo Irish, and one that has not received any attention: the only effect of a bailout is that the Irish taxpayer will make up the losses of Anglo Irish’s bondholders instead of the insurers who had already been paid to underwrite the risk.
Why it is necessary to transfer Anglo’s losses from the writers of Credit Default Swaps to the Irish taxpayer is something that the Government has not thought to justify.
Indeed, what has been disturbing about the entire Anglo affair is that at no stage has the Government felt it necessary to explain why any bailout was needed, beyond inchoate mutterings about the “systemic importance” of Anglo Irish.
The reality is that Anglo has no importance in the Irish financial system. It existed purely as a vehicle for a few politically connected individuals to place reckless bets on the commercial property market. These property speculators may be of systemic importance to the finances of Fianna Fáil, but their significance ends there.
In ordinary times, piling €30 billion of Anglo Irish losses on to the national debt would be painful and pointless but not impossible. These however are not ordinary times. International debt markets are flooded with governments trying to borrow. The other Irish banks are dangerously short of capital. Most importantly, the Irish economy and government finances are collapsing.
Ireland’s growth during the last decade was largely illusory, generated by a property bubble fuelled by reckless bank lending. In 2007 an incredible 20 per cent of our national income and employment came from building houses and commercial property. Next year, the percentage will be approximately zero.
The only industrialised economy that has endured a property and banking crash remotely comparable to what we are beginning to experience was Finland in 1991, where national income fell in total by 15 per cent and unemployment rose by 12 percentage points. As the private sector haemorrhages jobs it is hard to see how Irish national income will fall by less than 20 to 25 per cent in the next few years. Unemployment will easily reach 15 per cent by the end of the summer, and 20 per cent by next year, and will not start to fall until recovery in Britain and elsewhere permits mass emigration to resume. The economy will not begin to grow until real wages fall to competitive international levels, a process that will probably take a decade.
In other words, the Irish economy is facing a decade of stagnation and mass unemployment of the same magnitude as the 1980s, with the difference that the unemployed now have mortgages, car loans and maxed-out credit cards. Faced with an irreversible contraction on this scale, the Government will have grave difficulty borrowing to fund its ordinary expenditure, even after draconian cuts in spending and increases in taxation. In the view of international investors, piling Anglo Irish’s gambling losses on top of a spiralling national debt could easily suffice to sink the Irish State into bankruptcy.
In this national crisis, what should be done? The answer is simple. The State must do everything to rescue AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB, and let Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide sink.
The Government must continue to guarantee all deposits at Anglo Irish while announcing that, in the light of continuing revelations of misconduct in the bank and shortcomings in its auditing procedures, it will enter into negotiations with senior and unsecured bondholders.
The proposed Anglo nationalisation marks a decisive watershed in Irish democracy. With it, an Irish government has coolly looked its citizens in the eye and said: “Sorry, but your priorities are not ours.”
It is to be hoped that the collapse of other bank shares will serve as a warning to deter the Government from this catastrophic course. I would therefore urge any TDs and Senators who still believe that the Irish State exists to act in the interests of its people to vote against the nationalisation of Anglo Irish and do everything to protect the other banks.
 
I think international investors are concerned about 2 main areas:
- information & trust. No one believes the banks or government when they say they don't need capital, they won't be nationalized, don't have bad debts etc.
- accountability. No one has taken the rap for anything that has gone wrong. All we have so far are a few early retirements. "Nothing illegal has happened".

Though I'm sure it will all come out in some tribunal in 5-10 years time.
 
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...At the very least, Brian Lenihan's flipflopping about recapitalisation and nationalisation of Anglo Irish has caused the current banking meltdown and hopefully will result in FF out of office before year's end. Need a whole new approach with new people at the head of banks and running the economy.

I should preface my comment by saying that I blame FF, among others, for landing us in the mess in which we find ourselves.

But I think it is fair to say that nobody actually knows what to do, and Brian Lenihan's misfortune is that he is the one in the front line.

There is also the concern that nobody even seems to know the scale and exact nature of the problem: the banks are not giving much information. That seems to be due to a combination of their not knowing the whole story, and being unwilling to report on what they do know.
 
I think international investors are concerned about 2 main areas:
- information & trust. No one believes the banks or government when they say they don't need capital, they won't be nationalized, don't have bad debts etc.
- accountability. No one has taken the rap for anything that has gone wrong. All we have so far are a few early retirements. "Nothing illegal has happened".

Though I'm sure it will all come out in some tribunal in 5-10 years time.

I agree.
Also, I think that international investors are looking at Ireland as a financial banana republic, with very lax corporate finance-crime laws.
 
fair comment padraig about people not knowing exactly what to do now with the mess we are in (economists are disagreeing) but i do think lenihan's approach of a) nationalising Anglo and risking our national debt and b) saying that they would first recapitalise anglo and then last minute nationalising has resulted in investors concluding that the the government now has huge liabilities and also cannot be trusted not to nationalise the other banks.

In general, this was an accident waiting to happen and FF was in power during the period so they must take a good proportion of the blame. However, would another party have done differently? Would another party regulated the banks more, stopped the 100+ percent lending based on property? ... i dont know. To be honest, dont particularly trust any of the parties on that front. I think we need the best of the best from the private sector to govern the banks and also the department of finance. Which politican would you prefer to be at the helm?
 
... I think we need the best of the best from the private sector to govern the banks and also the department of finance.

Do bear in mind that it is not so long since many people would have regarded Sean FitzPatrick as the best of the best from the private sector.
 
Do bear in mind that it is not so long since many people would have regarded Sean FitzPatrick as the best of the best from the private sector.

fair comment again!!!

How about a panel of the best of the best ( and bring them in from abroad? - dont know who but people who are outsiders and not part of the establishment...)
 
doesent matter what other parties might have done - the fact is the current government presided over everything.

You notice none of the guilty parties has started blaming the other yet. I wonder how long that will take to change. The only blame being apportioned by anyone in the Government was when the Lenahan blamed low euro interest rates for the mess.

I reckon the banks will sooner or later reveal that they were coaxed & faciliated by the Government to extend the mad lending.

Perhaps that is why the authorities are so reculant to take Mr Fitxpatrick to court to see if a judge decides if fraud was involved. He might start singing like the spurned builders of a few years ago.
 
These property speculators may be of systemic importance to the finances of Fianna Fáil, but their significance ends there.
In making outrageous accusations like this MK loses all credibility. I haven't heard any opposition parties making these insinuations.
 
Did anyone see Morgan Kelly's article in the irish times today?
He states that he has it on good authority that the economists in the central bank and the financial department did not want to extend the liability guarantee to Anglo and irish nationwide at the original meeting in September. Cowen and Lenihan supported by central bank governor and financial regulator disagreed and said that it was imperative that they were supported to protect the overall banking system....

His article makes for very interesting reading and if true should see the end of ff government for trying to bail out their banker and property tycoon buddies...
If true this is pretty damning stuff with regards to how Ireland's elite run the whole country. If Cowen doesn't take a libel case against the IT and Morgan Kelly for this then his career is effectively over.
 
If Cowen doesn't take a libel case against the IT and Morgan Kelly for this then his career is effectively over.

i dont think theres any case for libel here at all. Morgan kelly is just doing what any journalist would do.

Some said dont nationalise anglo others said do. I dont think you are ever going to have full agreement ever on a issue like this. The taoiseach is the boss at the end of the day.

Morgan kelly is been way way too negative.

He is repeating the mistake that many people made during the boom: extrapolating current trends to make decisions about the future, failing to take into account how rapidly economic circumstances can change.

As the economy goes down, he is overemphasizing the negative just as many people exaggerated the positive on the way up.

Im sure he has his book ready for the printing press also.
 
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