Engineer wont sign off on Build

As part of my research and gathering of information required by an impending application for registration I checked the files of a project I on which our office was the head of the design team and read over much of the correspondence.

Minutes of meetings were sent to all the design team members, the contractor, attendees from nominated sub-contractors offices and the client as a matter of course.
Follow up correspondence was sent to nominated sub-contractors, design team members and the contractor but not necessarily to the client, unless input was required in order not to shower the client with paperwork.
The client was always advised in writing by our office as the head of the design team regarding matters of professional fees, projected costs, additional costs arising from variations, specific hold up items and resolution of items which had been dragging.

Depending on the stage of the project, follow-on correspondence originated from either the undersigned or the interior designer or both.
We had the client install a fax to allow for rapid communication in the event an instruction or re-design was needed urgently to allow briefing/approval proceed in a professional manner.
Many of the matters discussed in meetings were the subject of conversations devising resolutions prior to the meetings or shortly afterward there were very few fractious meetings because of this.

Cost overruns were the subject of some correspondence, for example a letter that referred to the number of drawings issued by one of the design team members as being nearly double the previous estimate of work.
This prefaced an application for additional fees consequent on variations to the work required by the client and necessitating input which I had formally requested at the time due to changes occurring due to the variations.
It was my job as head of the Design Team to bring this matter to the client's attention and agree in principle the note of additional fees.
The client was made aware by me from the start that additional professional fees were likely to arise if significant variations arose.

These days records left by text and e-mails are admissible in court, and the provisions of the Electronic Commerce Act 2000 in place to support the legality of electronic documents.
I cannot therefore see how the client could NOT have known of the problems arising in the subject project.
Unless they were out of the country in a place without e-mail connectivity AND no mobile coverage.

Even still, there is usually a postal service.
Maybe he was on the Arctic Tundra.
Its a mystery to me.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
AI cannot therefore see how the client could NOT have known of the problems arising in the subject project.
Unless they were out of the country in a place without e-mail connectivity AND no mobile coverage.
Or else, the professionals involved didn't communicate with the client.
 
Well, nope, not as such, Complainer.
An alleged doubling of a structural engineer's time like that usually means significant hold ups.

The structure is as primal as it gets in a building programme - you can work around problems in the later stages but its hard with structure.
If you've problems with the structure that requires sections to be investigated, then repaired or rebuilt, delays arise because no finished work can proceed.

Evident delays without communication from the Design Team should have shouted at the employer that he was not being kept in the loop by either his professionals or the builder.
Most employers have their eye on the money and they know that delays mean costs of some sort, so work clearly not moving forward to completion should have alerted the employer regardless.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
I see your point - maybe I should have been more specific.

Maybe the professionals didn't communicate with the client about the impacts to the cost of the engineer's services?
 
I think you're quite correct on that, Complainer.

Even meeting minutes should have alerted the Employer and the OP hasn't confirmed he received or read any.
But then again, their very absence should have raised some flags.

Employers can take their eye of the ball, too, especially at this time of year when private things like end of terms and preparation for exams can distract even the most focused parent, or holidays can take you out of circulation for a while.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Personally I'm baffled how a "professional" can exceed their contract, without informing the client. I'm also baffled how a "professional" can see "incompetence" and not inform their client of same.
 
<nods>

I think we're all on that page now AlbacoreA, but something isn't adding up here
Delays on structural items usually don't only affect the additional fees the engineer will seek.

But timely notification of a likely cause of delay is important to all parties to any contract, because so many follow on events stack up when a primary issue like structure is causing the delay.
The whole point of involving independent professionals in the first place is to ensure that both the Employer and Contractor have their interests and duties fairly administered during a building contract.

All parties, nominated sub-contractors and suppliers, usually start writing and covering themselves with paper because they have scheduled their work for a particular slot and this will be thrown out of kilter.
Also if such variations cannot be accommodated, then additional storage on site may have to be provided by the Contractor or the Employer for deliveries on dates for which contracts have already been entered into.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Only OP knows what went on and OP is not giving any more information so it's all pure speculation.

mf
 
Only OP knows what went on and OP is not giving any more information so it's all pure speculation.

mf

Yes, why I have reserved making any further comments, lets all wait for the OP to clear up the matter further.
 
Normally I'd agree PJII, but I find that with laypeople, a degree of rank speculation in an even handed manner in a forum like this allows them to get a better handle on what *should* have gone on as opposed to what did go on.

It prepares them for approaching the problem, in a similar manner to how a glance at a car Owner's Manual tells a total newcomer to motoring where the dipstick and filler cap for the oil is and how to tell them from the windscreen washer bottle filler.

Thus this series of posts will allow the Employer/OP to be in a better position to discern lame excuses / disinformation from the facts when answers are given to the questions we have posed here.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Hi All, thanks for your Input.

It’s not my job to keep tabs on the Minutes and how many times the Engineer visits the Site. The Engineer is a professional, and as a professional should be able to count the number of time they visited the site and let me know if more visits are required than the original agreed visits. As a professional they should know well in advance that if more visits are required then they should inform their employer.

A contract takes two parties to valid, one party cannot change the contract because they ‘feel’ that it is required without informing the other party and then expect them to uphold the amended contract . To turn it on its head if i ‘felt’ that the builder was fantastic and i decided that the engineer only needed to make 4 visits instead of the contracted visits without telling the Engineer then if the same logic was applied , I would be perfectly entitled to reduce the monies to be paid on the Original Agreement . Because the Engineer did not keep up continuous contact with me to query any changes in the Contract, then it was the fault of the Engineer.

I believe no matter if the house was falling down , the engineer had no right what so ever without informing me first verbally ,in writing , Fax , Text , Pigeon, Morse Code that extra visits over and above the original agreed contract visits were required and the extra cost per visit .


Builder had requested Engineer to Visit Site a number of times but i was never pre informed of this. If the Engineer was having an issue with the Builder nothing was ever mentioned and Builder first heard about complaints from Engineer when i queried the Builder regarding the extra Visits made by the engineer.

Originally Posted by mf1 http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1174820#post1174820
OP was not keeping an eye on the ball, or, more likely, knew about the extra visits , but reckoned if no-one told him, he would not pay.

I believe it may have been the Engineer who though this , keep coming and milk the ‘Cash Cow’ until no real reason to come and then give reason that builder was no good if anybody asked questions.

I see the Us ‘Professional people who should not be Questioned’ and THEM ‘Laypeople who don’t have a clue and should leave it to us Professionals ‘creeping in , the old Doctor and Patient Mentality.

Just to let you know no changes were made to original design, so no extra work was required from Engineer on that side.

Regards, Jumper1
 
jumper1,

There is no us and them on AAM - everyone contributes.
As it is, a lot of people have posted to this thread to better inform you and to tease out the issues.
I doubt they would have taken time out of their to do so day unless they thought there was a distinct possibility that your trust had been abused.

However on reading your reply it seems as though you haven't addressed some of the issues raised.
You have however adopted a strong position in relation to the minutes.
You seem to think you don't have a responsibility to read them.
Not so - minutes are a means of keeping all parties informed.

If you were copied with the minutes you were obliged to read them to inform yourself (as the Employer) of developments arising during the building programme being executed by the Contractor.
Such minutes as were sent should have informed you in sufficient detail of the difficulties arising and should have recorded the fact that the Contractor, a party to the Contract to which you refer, requested attendances by a professional in a matter where issues requiring his attention had arisen on site.

==============================

One instance where matters arising such as extras and professional fee increments might not particularly concern you (as the Employer) in relation to cost, is if the contractor is undertaking a design build contract with the design team novated to him and their fees are included in the overall contract sum.

Even in a commercial design-build turnkey contract situation, where you might be contractually isolated from financial implications of delays or extras in the programme, you as Employer would still read the minutes the better to inform yourself as to the progress of the building works because any delay in your development coming to market would mean a loss in revenue for that quarter for your company and a consequent possible legal battle to recover monies from the Contractor.

Otherwise in most other contracts risk is borne by both the contractor and the employer.
Where reasonable and provable extras arise you will be obliged to pay for them or seek to rebut them and then either negotiate a settlement or have your day in arbitration, mediation or court.

==============================

In relation to the minutes, if such events were mentioned in the minutes, the only issue remaining would seem to be whether they were covered adequately.
In an ideal world, yes, someone should have informed you of these developments separately from the minutes - assuming you maintained contact with your design team and Contractor and vice-versa.
The fact that this didn't happen suggests communication was not all it should have been, which reflects poorly on the professionals and the Employer - remember its YOUR building and you should be taking a reasonable level of interest in the proceedings.

==============================

If you had no intention of monitoring the project yourself it was open to you to engage a project manager or client agent to ensure things went as planned.
Where you have failed to appoint a project manager or client agent, AND where you failed to read the minutes, it is foreseeable that you could end up being uninformed regarding matters arising which otherwise you would know about.

This is not to excuse the inaction of others, but to point out a general principle of law - you are obliged to always act to mitigate your loss.
Keeping yourself informed on a construction project costing tens or hundreds of thousands of Euro would be evidence of acting so as to mitigate your loss.
Where you failed to keep yourself informed I suspect you cannot expect to use your lack of knowledge as a sure defence against claims of reasonable fee increases.

==============================

As for your interpretation of how contract works and how you might hypothetically have reduced the number of engineers visits, I doubt that this is so.
You are a layperson, the engineer is a professional and you are not competent to make that judgement.
If you ever do -
(i) make such a judgement and in the face of resistance from an engineer formally instruct him to withdraw from a project and
(ii) defects or other unforeseen events arise that cost you money which his presence might have prevented
- you will have compromised any action you might otherwise succeed in against the Contractor or Design Team.
Since the cost of attendances are usually a small fraction of the cost of remedying potential defects, this is a false economy.

In relation to the engineer, if he was requested to attend by the Contractor and he performed his duties diligently and professionally it is my opinion that a court is likely to award him his fees on a quantum meruit basis.
I don't offer this comment out of the blue - while waiting for my client case to go on, I had to sit through a case involving an engineer seeking fees in a Drogheda court a few years back - he won.
For €125 a site visit [8 visits for €1000] you weren't paying him huge money.
So, unless you can show either -
(i) willful negligence or gross incompetence om his part or
(ii) wholly gratuitous attendances that were definitely not required
- then I think you would be well advised to settle the amount claimed.
Failing this you may have to engage another professional to competently rebut his claim.
(there is an argument that if you are unhappy about his professional standard work you might take legal advice leading to this)

I would strongly advise that you should not repeat the comments you made above to third parties if referring by name this project, builder or engineer as its possible they could be construed as defamatory.
I would strongly advise that you take competent legal advice in relation to the contract you had in place, the responsibilities of all parties under it, and the sustainability of your position or otherwise.
I would ask you to remember - its important to know how real world events are resolved so please consider letting AAM readers know how this turns out for you to improve this free online resource.

Best of luck with it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
It’s not my job to keep tabs on the Minutes and how many times the Engineer visits the Site. The Engineer is a professional, and as a professional should be able to count the number of time they visited the site and let me know if more visits are required than the original agreed visits.
No, you as a Client/Employer have a responsibility to at least read the Minutes & if there are any issues of concern to you, you could address them to the Architect. Sometimes Clients attend the site meetings, sometimes not.
Were there any issues in the minutes that would have concerned you?

As a professional they should know well in advance that if more visits are required then they should inform their employer.
No, a professional will know in advance what set no. of site visits are required. They will not know how many additional site visits are required.
Jumper1 could you please clarify why the Engineer required the additional site visits?

A contract takes two parties to valid, one party cannot change the contract because they ‘feel’ that it is required without informing the other party and then expect them to uphold the amended contract.
Yes you are correct that a contract requires two or more parties. However you need to 1. establish where the breakdown in communication was, and 2. why there was such a breakdown in communcation?
You seem to have answered No.1, by saying that the Engineer should of informed you, but now Jumper1 find out why your Engineer didn't inform you.

To turn it on its head if i ‘felt’ that the builder was fantastic and i decided that the engineer only needed to make 4 visits instead of the contracted visits without telling the Engineer then if the same logic was applied , I would be perfectly entitled to reduce the monies to be paid on the Original Agreement . Because the Engineer did not keep up continuous contact with me to query any changes in the Contract, then it was the fault of the Engineer.
No, this not the way the No. of site visits are decided. An Engineer will decide the No. of site visits based on the complexity of the house design & the overall project. The most obvious site visits are - Excavation of the foundations - Pouring of the foundations - Ground floor slab - Construction to eaves/first floor level - construction to roof level.
I stress this, its not for the Client\Employer to decide how many site visits are required, its for the Engineer to decide.

Now, the additional site visits could depend on a variety of reasons:
1. The Contractor\builder could be fantastic!, and no additional site visits are required.
2. The Contractor\builder could be fantastic!, and an additional site visit by the Engineer was required at the architects request.
3. The Contractor\builder could be fantastic!, and an additional site visit was required by the Engineer because the builder came across an existing 'spring' in the location of the proposed foundations. (In other words a builder could be fantastic, but will not always know the existing terrain or ground conditions).
4. The Contractor\builder could make numerous errors!, and additional site visits
5. The Contractor\builder forgot to notify the engineer that they were pouring the foundations a day later. The engineer had to make an extra site visit the following day.
.
.
.
.
The list could go on, and on. But remember too that a 'fantastic' Contractor\builder and a 'disastrous' Contractor\builder have a responsibility too to you the Client\Employer. An Engineer's responsibility is not to tell a Contractor what to do and what to do right. You have the right to have your Contractor to act professionally on your behalf, the same right to ask your Engineer to act professionally on your behalf.

Now, Jumper1, AAM posters are here to help you. Could you give us the 8 reasons as to why your Engineer required the extra 8 site visits and if you don't know could you please request your Engineer to give you a written document outlining the reasons for the additional site visits?

I believe no matter if the house was falling down , the engineer had no right what so ever without informing me first verbally ,in writing , Fax , Text , Pigeon, Morse Code that extra visits over and above the original agreed contract visits were required and the extra cost per visit .
This is a rather wild statement to make. Jumper1, lets look at this from another point of view. The Client has spent to date €200,000 on a house to roof level. He is looking to spend another €100,000 to finish and furnish it. He is delighted at this stage and decides to take 2 weeks holidays and head abroad. The contractor notices a few 45 degree cracks to the gable wall and requests the engineer to visit the site to inspect same. The engineer notifies the architect, but the architect cannot contact to Client. The contractor again notifies the Engineer, stressing that this gable wall is now leaning towards the occupied neighbouring house gable wall. What you are saying you would rather the Engineer in this case to ignore this issue until it is agreed with you the Client. In other words if the €200,000 house falls down, then you the Client will be automatically down €200,000 simply because you wrote to your Engineer and you stated under no circumstances is the Engineer to attend additional site visits. The Courts will question the Client why he didn't allow an Engineer to inspect the project at that time. However no Engineer will ever agree with a Client as to the number of 'additional' site visits that are required, so the above example would not arise.
The number of additional site visits is dependent very much on the project itself and how the project is run.

The Engineer has a responsibility to act professionally within his job, but to also act professionally if public safety becomes an issue, like the example above. An Engineer has to act when there is a need for him to act. The Architect may request the Engineer to visit the site, the Contractor may request the engineer to visit the site. Perhaps at times a Client may request an Engineer to visit the site!
Your Engineers view was that the additional site visits were necessary, so lets find out why your Engineer required the additional site visits. If he cannot give you specific reasons which are in agreement with both the Architect and the Contractor for the additional site visits, then you need to hold off until you get those specific reasons.

Builder had requested Engineer to Visit Site a number of times but i was never pre informed of this. If the Engineer was having an issue with the Builder nothing was ever mentioned and Builder first heard about complaints from Engineer when i queried the Builder regarding the extra Visits made by the engineer.
If the builder requested your Engineer to visit the site a number of times.
You have to find out No. 1. Why your builder requested your Engineer to visit the site, No. 2. Why was it not communicated to you?


The Engineer more then likely has no issues with your contractor if he is telling the truth, but the Engineer may have issues with the contractor if he is misrepresenting the reasons as to why the Engineer made the additional site visits.
You need to get a written response from both your Engineer and your Contractor. By the way has your Contractor been fully paid?


‘Professional people who should not be Questioned’ and THEM ‘Laypeople who don’t have a clue and should leave it to us Professionals ‘creeping in , the old Doctor and Patient Mentality.

Yes, you have every right to question the professionals Jumper1. But remember you have several professionals - the Engineer, the Architect, the Contractor, the Quantity Surveyor. But I find its always best to query the professionals as events are happening. Sometimes Clients even visit the site and query contractors directly etc.

Just to let you know no changes were made to original design, so no extra work was required from Engineer on that side.
Now thats good to know.
Now Jumper1 find out exactly the reasons for the additional site visits, the reasons for the visits, why they were not communicated to you and request a written response from the contractor and the engineer, and if needs be the architect.
 
Wel PJ11,

That was worth waiting to read and no mistake... :)

I'm now in suspenders waiting for the next instalment...

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Wel PJ11,

That was worth waiting to read and no mistake... :)

I'm now in suspenders waiting for the next instalment...

ONQ.

Cheers ONQ, next installment will depend on the OP's next response.....eagerly awaiting for it.
 
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