Employers to cover first 4 weeks sick-pay

[oldnick]

Actually the real answer to the continuing cost of hiring employees is to do what is happening in every conveneience store I've been to in and around Dublin .
I can't speak for the garage convenience stores, the Spas and Centras outside of Dublin but here every one seems to employ Mauritians, Chinese and Indians.

They are on short-stay contracts ,usually they're supposedly students only allowed to work a certain number of hours per week. It's a great way to avoid the increasingly onerous conditions being imposed on employers -and they're cheap and hard-working.
Why employ an Irish person who either stays at home and gets 190 euros a week or comes to work and expects all sorts of benefits when one can get a hard-working educated cheap Asian who won't be around for too long ?

 

[Complainer]

I guess some of us have forgotten the mantra "we must all share the pain".

Marion

I guess for some of us, that mantra was never really meant to be taken to heart at all.

Why employ an Irish person who either stays at home and gets 190 euros a week or comes to work and expects all sorts of benefits when one can get a hard-working educated cheap Asian who won't be around for too long ?

Because nationality has no impact on employment rights.

 

[T McGibney]

I guess for some of us, that mantra was never really meant to be taken to heart at all.

Millionaire-pension civil service bosses and ex-Ministers - the most glaring examples I can think of.

 

[oldnick]

Nationality does have an impact on employment rights if people of a certain nationality are not allowed to stay in the state for more than a certain period, and if during their stay they cannot work more than a certain number of hours, and if they are not allowed to bring their spouses with them.

Less worries for the employer about redundancy payments, maternity leave and benefits -and bluntly less worries about "I-know-my-rights" employees.

 

[Amygdala]

Nationality does have an impact on employment rights if people of a certain nationality are not allowed to stay in the state for more than a certain period, and if during their stay they cannot work more than a certain number of hours, and if they are not allowed to bring their spouses with them.

Less worries for the employer about redundancy payments, maternity leave and benefits -and bluntly less worries about "I-know-my-rights" employees.

Well said old nick. Best to employ those who have less rights than those who have more. Put me down for three. Where did you get your MBA?

 

[oldnick]

Talk about shooting the messenger and not heeding the message Amygdala.

If I was not clear let me write this slowly..

If governments impose conditions that employers cannot afford then employers will seek alternatives. That, Amygdala, is not my fault- it is just a fact and one result of too many employment conditions being imposed on small businesses.

Possible other results:-

- making employees "self-employed" . This is common in some countries such as Spain where employees have very strong and favourable conditions (over 20% of them are out of work nowadays -co-incidence?). Over the last decade the increase in "automonas" has increased -an employer gives a job to someone but on a self-employed basis.
This is because Spanish employers are finding it too difficult and expensive to employ people- not because of wages but because of the never ending benefits given to the workers.
This is happening even here with,for example, sales people. Even in my own ex-trade ,the travel business, the largest travel agency uses about 70 self-employed agents or counsellors with no employment rights whatsoever.

2. The growth in undocumented labour. Again a big phenomenon in Spain- and wherever an economy is in trouble and the legal employment of people is burdened with conditions.

3. Increased unemployment -when the economy is crap and small businesses are struggling (and failing every day).

 

[Deiseblue]

As you say employers are employing every stratagem to keep businesses going & more power to them!

However if they breach employment legislation then they should be prosecuted or reported to the LRC or the Rights Commissioner depending on the offense - people may dislike it but it is the law of the land.

 

[oldnick]

Here's another one...

attendance bonus - I would have thought this would be illegal but it seems increasingly common and even accepted by trade unions...

There are various schemes - but essentially an employee is rewarded for not taking days off.
For example -employee ABC takes a months sick pay and gets, say, 36k -the official annual salary of 12 months at 3k per month. Officially the employer has paid her for taking a month off. Employee XYZ takes no sick pay and gets a bonus of 3k -total -39k which is what the employer had pre-calculated as a workable income per employee.


There will be always legal (as well as illegal) ways around these rules.
Interesting in the news today -including irish times - how in UK the abuse of sick pay has reached such levels and is costing the economy so much that the govnt is now changing the rules regarding medical superviosn - no more quick sick notes from your local G.P.

 

[Yachtie]

I guess some of us have forgotten the mantra "we must all share the pain".

As a very small busines owner, I am SICK of sharing the pain, because I seem to share it only with the other small business owners while we are collectively (as a society) supporting thousands of 'career' long term unemployed.

To back this up somewhat, I was made redundant in 2008 from a €70k p.a. job. Didn't manage to secure another one in a few months so I went out to create a job for myself. I now earn a very small fraction of what I used to. My family's lifestyle went through a huge adjustment and we don't complain.

On the other hand, I have met several long term unemployed who use all kinds of excuses from having children to being 'creative, artistic person' for not working even at times when we had more jobs than people.

I meet my legal obligations as an employer, often at the detriment of myself and my own family. If my employees are not working, whether it's due to the bank holiday, holiday or sickness, the company is not making money. So technically, all those obligations are met out of my own pocket. I (and I can only speak for myself) can not afford to pay sick leave or Christmas bonus. The money simply isn't there!!!

Having to pay up to 4 weeks sick leave, including the Monday morning hangover leave would drive me out of business in a couple of weeks and would create even bigger burden on the state.

In order to achieve savings, I think that the state should put a cap on how much anyone can receive in handouts. For example, put a cap on total amount of unemployment benefit + child benefit + mortgage interest allowance / rent supplement + single parent allowance + whatever. I know a long term unemployed single mother of 4 school going children who receives close to €3000 per month in handouts. I don't know exactly what this figure is made up of but she blatantly states that she's better off staying at home and receiving €3000 than working for far less. Her three sisters do exactly the same and haven't done a day's work between them. Then you'd see a surge of Irish people taking jobs in your local Spar, Centra or Maxol.

In Holland, the state will assist you in securing emplyment through an agency similar to FAS. Once you turn down the second job they offer you, your benefits stop. I wonder how quickly our unemployment rate would improve if this was implemented here.

 

[blueband]

if the dole appears to be that good im surprised you are not taking advantage of it yourself! but then the other mans grass........and all that

 

[z107]

I guess some of us have forgotten the mantra "we must all share the pain".

Marion

Lol!

The day I get to share their wealth, will be the day I consider sharing the pain.
Unfortunately, their pain is begin foisted upon us.

 

[Chris]

I'm not sure what your point is here Chris

I'm totally against bringing in the "employer pays" scenario

Apologies, that wasn't really directed at you, more in general.

The employer pays PRSI to "cover" sick pay. The employee pays PRSI to "cover" sick pay.

If the "pain" were to be fairly distributed then the empoyer should pay approximately half and the the employee should carry the other half of the standard rate. This should apply to the public and private sectors alike.

Both employer and employee PRSI are a tax on wages which means that it is effectively the employee that pays the whole amount. It is just dressed up nicely to sound "appealing" to employees. Employers do not calculate their salary budget for a year and then add employer PRSI on top of it, they work out how much they can afford to pay including PRSI.

 

[Yachtie]

if the dole appears to be that good im surprised you are not taking advantage of it yourself! but then the other mans grass........and all that

I am assuming that above was directed at me... I actually get to pay myself marginally more than the unemployment benefit or whatever is around €200 per week. Why I don't take the dole myself? Well, I worked hard my whole life and wouldn't know what to do with myself if I wasn't working. To be very clear, I have no issues with people who lost their jobs in the recession and are making genuine attempt to secure alternative employment but finding it impossible. I have a problem with 'career unemployed' whom there are more than just a handful.

 

[Firefly]

I don't believe that the dramatic over-reaction seen here (similar to the dramatic over-reaction to the 'raiding of private pensions) is genuine. It is generally coming from those people who call loudly for cutbacks and reductions for other people, but suddenly start whining very, very loudly when a small impact of our current desperate situation starts to hit them, as opposed to hitting other people.

Businesses up and down the country are closing or laying off people. Do you have any idea what that feels like both for the employees and employers? How about the employees that are not sure if they will be working after Christmas...wonder how they feel? There are 400 thousand on the dole and rising. People are having to emigrate...a relation of mine had to take up with in Holland and can only come home once a month to see his partner and child.

Apart from making a tiny contribution to a pension with an equivalent value of a million + I can't see anything else to suggest that the pain has been spread evenly in this country, perhaps you could enlighted us?

 

[cork]

The amounts of sick days in the public sector has gone of of all control.

Doctors are a lot to blame giving sick certs.

 

[oldnick]

If Complainer's attitude is typical of a Labour supporter it does not surprise me.
Many Labour supporters seem to have an atavistic dislike of anyone trying to do their own business -regardless as to how small, tough and profitless it is.
(the same scorn is directed to anyone who has saved money and bought an investment property and is therefore an evil landlord).

Complainer .....................
....do you really not understand that the average small businessperson has:-
- far less protection than someone who is employed (and certainly far far less than a public servant)
- in many cases is earning less than the average industrial wage (and far far less than a Labour politician)
- often works all hours ,weekends,holidays
- and when they fail and lose everything they get no aid from the government.


Is it, Complainer, a confusion in your mind about the word "business" ? Do you confuse the person with a small greengrocers, a couple of lorries or a hairdressimng business with the fat cats on a million a year ?

You may as in your last post call small businees people over-dramatic whiners and ,frankly, i wouldn't care about the stupidity of one person's comments. What is worrying is that your unceasingly derogative comments are representative of the Irish labour Party's attitude towards those people that Ireland most desperately needs.

 

[shnaek]

Ireland historically has little time for those who work hard to make something of themselves. Hopefully that attitude is changing.

 

[T McGibney]

Ireland historically has little time for those who work hard to make something of themselves. Hopefully that attitude is changing.

That attitude is certainly not changing, if anything it is hardening.

In this country, if you advocate any cut or rationalisation in public services or provision, you are still labelled a neocon or Thatcherite.

There is a lot of derision shown towards people working in small businesses and farms. There is also much contempt for rural dwellers and this is both reinforced by, and evident in, policymaking. I attribute this, in general terms, to pure snobbery. Most members of the governing class in this country are only a generation or two away from agrarian or inner-city urban subsistence living and their insecurity feeds a need to mentally isolate themselves from the lower orders in both city and countryside. I blame the famine myself.

 

[Firefly]

Complainer .....................
....do you really not understand that the average small businessperson has:-
- far less protection than someone who is employed (and certainly far far less than a public servant)
- in many cases is earning less than the average industrial wage (and far far less than a Labour politician)
- often works all hours ,weekends,holidays
- and when they fail and lose everything they get no aid from the government.

I expect Complainer to provide the usual line about directors paying less PRSI, but as has been repeatdly pointed out...directors don't have the option to pay increased PRSI and avail of the dole should they find themselves out of work. I for one would gladly pay the higher rate.

 

[Purple]

This is a young country so there is very little inherited wealth. There is some but relative to the rest of Western Europe it’s tiny.
I know it’s not popular and it certainly isn’t populist but most of the people in Ireland who run successful businesses have worked extremely hard to build them up. They have taken risks with their own money, often risking their family home, and endured massive levels of stress along with 80 hour plus 7 day working weeks on the way up. Most of them still work long hours and deal with huge stress levels. If you haven’t run your own business, particularly at the start-up stage, then you have no idea how hard it is.

These are the people that the Labour Party hates and looks down on but they are also the people who give jobs, opportunities and self respect to “The Poor”. “The Poor” are not the same as the poor. “The Poor” are the under-class of half-wits that the upper-middle class socialists in labour think exists and feel they need to look after. A bit like the white man’s burden of yester-year but they aren’t black.

The employers, the people Labour hate, don’t think that The Poor exist at all. They just see people (some of whom are poor) and, if they have the skills and/or the right attitude, they give them a job. The employers don’t think the their employees are stupid and need to be "looked after", they just get on with running their business knowing that in the medium term what’s good for the business is also good for the employees.

The strange thing is that the evil employers are the people who actually offer opportunity to poor people whereas the upper middle class socialists in Labour would cross the street to avoid them. Funny that.