E&Y: Free public transport would reduce car travel by only 1%
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T McGibney
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Apples and oranges.
The Netherlands has one of the most urbanised populations on the planet, at 92.2%
Ireland's is 63.7%.
Of course the more a country is urbanised, the less need there is for cars. But does greater urbanisation actually mean less congestion / less pollution / healthier citizens, or the opposite? I'm struggling to think of anywhere in Ireland that is congested but not urbanised.
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So more urbanised means less need for cars ... but yet they have more cars. So it comes back to the usage.
So compare the urban areas in Ireland to the Netherlands. I would guess the social cost of car usage in Ireland is higher for the reasons mentioned earlier. No figures to support this. Just anecdotal evidence.
T McGibney
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And I would guess the social benefit of car usage in Ireland is higher too.
Lots Of Love to you too
To correct your mistake - my source is a paper by the Faculty of Transport and Traffic Science in the University of Dresden.
Do you know more about Transport and Traffic than they do?
Yes - the European Parliament Greens commissioned the study (it was obvious in the link I gave). In any case, are you contending that the Greens are the bad guys of the world? It's an unorthodox point of view. Personally, I'm more inclined to be suspicious of the multi-trillion dollar oil and car industries...
Have you found specific issues in the paper?
If so, do you have a better estimate of the cost of things like road accidents, pollution and noise from private cars in Ireland?
Because those are all real costs that we all pay for through taxes. I'm happy to debate the level of those costs if you like (based on other sources you find, etc.) but you still haven't backed up your claim that private motoring is a net earner for society.
T McGibney
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Note I didn't make any comment, good bad or indifferent, about you.Lots Of Love to you too
It's not a mistake.
It's hosted literally on a Green political lobby group website.
I don't care how much the authors know. If a Green political lobby group is hosting a study on their site, we can safely assume that it's politically biased. If Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael is hosting a study on their site, I'd make the same assumption.
I have made no such claim.
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Ok - I get it now about your entire-country point (I suppose I was getting at the issue of needing different approaches based on different population densities)I'm also in Dublin, but my post was written with the entire country in mind.
I'm struggling to agree with you, regarding your justification for using your car to go into the city. With the TFI 90 minute cap, it's very good value, and can't cost more than a return journey by car, when you consider fuel, parking, then other costs associated with motoring, can it?
For anyone not familiar with the 90min cap:
TFI 90 Minute Fare - Leap Card
You can use the TFI network around Dublin for 90 Minutes with your TFI Leap Card, for just €2 for adults, €1 for young adults (19-25) or students, and 65 cent for children. TFI 90 applies to most journeys in the Dublin area whether you are using multiple services during 90 minutes or simply...about.leapcard.ie
Thanks - I'll check out the 90 minute fare. However, if I add up the costs for all of us on bus versus just parking+fuel in car, the car unfortunately usually wins (and would regularly be more convenient). I failed to add that we do try to avoid using the car, and opt for bus anyway most of the time, despite the extra cost.
Any other motoring costs (outside parking/fuel) related to short trips are very low for us (I maintain the car myself) - there are fixed costs around owning a car (depreciation, etc.) but we're not willing to take the step yet of doing without it...
Nor I you - I responded to your own Lots Of Love message here:
If it's not a mistake, have you deliberately misrepresented facts? You said: "Your source is literally a Green political lobby group". To repeat, the source is a study by University of Dresden. Can you show me where it says the study/paper was created by the Green group? I think you're confusing the fact that they commissioned it.
Sounds very much like Michael Gove's "I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" and Brexit's gone very well for them since then.
Yes you have, here's a reminder from what you said previously, as you seem confused again:
T McGibney
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I'm not in the least confused.
I said (and backed up with figures):
You misinterpreted this to claim I said:
I'm ignoring your other frivolous points. (Except LOL doesn't stand for Lots of Love.)
Yes it does: https://www.abbreviationfinder.org/acronyms/lol_lots-of-love.html
(but I guess you didn't know that meaning when you took offense at my use of that meaning to bring a bit of levity when you derided the source I came up with)
So you claim that "private motoring constitutes a huge net earner for the taxpayer" but you do not claim "private motoring is a net earner for society".
I'll admit to being confused at that one alright.
As you say, you've ignored the point about the source I gave - it's easy to label points frivolous if you don't like them.
No you didn't. You started that task, and I tried to help you complete the figures that but it didn't suit you to debate them, so you laughed at my attempt instead of debating it/coming up with alternatives.
I don't see you being interested in looking at the full expenses side of the balance sheet for private motoring (do you think it's zero?), so I'm happy to leave it at that.
T McGibney
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OK. I literally said something (confirmed by actual and verifiable quotes in my last comment above) and you're persisting in claiming that I said something else. It's not even a subtle point. Lots of things in life are good earners for the taxpayer but poor for society, smoking being an example.
You're clearly not interested in good faith debate, and I'm not engaging any further with you.
Sophrosyne
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I always get the impression that the Greens concentrate on one bus or Luas ride that takes you exactly where you want to go and not a prohibitive distance away.
In a lot of cases, travel involves two or even three bus rides and even then you might not be anywhere near where you want to be.
I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but Dublin doesn’t make it easy to get connecting buses. The termini are all over the city. The same goes for train stations.
Then there is the anti-social behaviour on our transport systems. None of my female relatives feel safe travelling on their own after dark, or in certain areas, during the day and so they use their cars.
In a lot of cases, travel involves two or even three bus rides and even then you might not be anywhere near where you want to be.
I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but Dublin doesn’t make it easy to get connecting buses. The termini are all over the city. The same goes for train stations.
Then there is the anti-social behaviour on our transport systems. None of my female relatives feel safe travelling on their own after dark, or in certain areas, during the day and so they use their cars.
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As someone who's very pro-environment, etc - I would drive rather than get the LUAS if I have the option because it is over-crowded almost any time I take it.
At least with buses, most of them drive past if the bus is obviously full. On LUAS some squeeze themselves in regardless. It is not only uncomfortable, it is unsafe I think at times.
Agreed that there is more active travel in the Netherlands, but (a) they own more cars than in Ireland (520 per 1,000 inhabitants (NL) vs 446 per 1,000 inhabitants (IE)) Motorisation rates in the EU, by country and vehicle type - ACEA - European Automobile Manufacturers' Association and (b) impose higher external costs (13,396 Mio€ (NL) vs 2,890 Mio€ (IE)), as per the report referenced by poster Concrete in post #30 above. So they don’t have a lower social cost of car usage. I doubt their citizens are healthier, as e.g. they have a higher smoking rate than Ireland.
One reason there is less congestion is because NL and equivalent EU countries such as BE have better transport infrastructure than IE. Our infrastructure is positively primitive. For example, Ireland has 663 km of motorway, which puts us as the 47th country in the world in terms of motorway infrastructure. To put this in perspective, we have just 30 km more motorway than the workers’ paradise of Cuba! https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Road/Motorway-length (All countries compared for Transport > Road > Motorway length (nationmaster.com)). Equivalent EU countries such as BE has 1,763 km of motorway, and NL has 2,274 km. So NL a country that is 59% the size of Ireland has 343% more motorway kilometres than IE. BE a country that is 44% the size of Ireland has 166% more more motorway kilometres. Cars are not a problem in Ireland; and a spendaholic vanity project like free state transport is just market-rigging on favour of the state sector.
I believe one of the key areas that should be focused on is "The last mile" or indeed the First mile. in other words, how you get to or get from the train station, Luas or bus stop. Rather then perhaps focussing on new ways of collecting fares or indeed free travel, why not, for example, have a Dublin Bikes stand at every Luas stop, with bike lanes.? Likewise, have a stand on every main street in the City centre.
Firstly, the social costs need not be measured in currency.
Dutch teens are some of the happiest in the world (see Google). This has been somewhat attributed to their independence as they can spend more time taking care of themselves and moving around without the need for their parents to drive them due to the infrastructure. So while they have better motorways they also have better bike lanes and public transport. It's not just car infrastructure.
I never said cars are a problem. It's car usage that's the problem in Ireland (congestion, pollution and also making the place generally less safe for active travel) and the lack of infrastructure for active travel.
Driving less would be better for us for so many reasons from financial to health to quality of life.
We don't need to ban cars. We just need to use them and alternatives more intelligently. And yes there are many occasions when the car is the only option. We need to reduce those occasions.
I disagree strongly with this particular statement.
It's not buses, bikes or pedestrians that are blocking up our public roads (and paths) morning, noon and night.
It's our cars when we choose to use them instead of other options (and in the cities there often are other good options for a lot of people). We need to put suitable incentives/disincentives in place to change this usage.
I think it has to be two-pronged: increase and improve public (and sustainable) transport infrastructure; and reduce the number of cars in use (to allow that public transport to move freely and keep to timetables etc.) At the moment, the volume of cars makes it nigh-on impossible for buses to be on time.
If there are bottlenecks on bus routes, then traffic should be diverted away from that area or new roads built.
I personally think cars are a necessity and people should use cars when they want, especially families.
People who want to save money, or don't own a car, should have excellent public transport available, so they don't have to use a taxi just to avoid the stress of public transport.
People would naturally gravitate to public transport if it was run properly, and could get them there faster.
In parts of Dublin where there are bus lanes, they do get to town faster than cars.
They really need to run more buses at rush hour. The goal should be - everyone has a seat (This should be the goal for Luas as well..)
I also think they should get mini-buses for routes that don't have high-volume, and run them more regularly as well, rather than the current situation of using the full size buses going only once every hour or so.
I personally think cars are a necessity and people should use cars when they want, especially families.
People who want to save money, or don't own a car, should have excellent public transport available, so they don't have to use a taxi just to avoid the stress of public transport.
People would naturally gravitate to public transport if it was run properly, and could get them there faster.
In parts of Dublin where there are bus lanes, they do get to town faster than cars.
They really need to run more buses at rush hour. The goal should be - everyone has a seat (This should be the goal for Luas as well..)
I also think they should get mini-buses for routes that don't have high-volume, and run them more regularly as well, rather than the current situation of using the full size buses going only once every hour or so.