Drugs......is there such a thing as a recreational user?

[truthseeker]

I also said in that post that my family were the type who think drugs = scumbags so I prefer that they don't know as I will get a hard time over it as will he.
As for him taking them even though we have a child.....well, people do stupid things. What can I say? I don't think that a good relationship should be thrown away because of one thing he does that I don't approve of. Better or worse and all that. And as you said in your earlier post, the risk associated with E is not that high. 6 out of 226. And of those how many were caused by dehydration as opposed to the actual drug?

The fact that the risk is there at all - stats or no stats, its irresponsible (in my book). I know people do stupid things, but one would imagine (and hope) that if they had a child their priorities would shift and they would become more sensible - no/yes?
Would you say your family are unusual in their views?
At the beginning of this I didnt know that there was a child to factor into the equation, nor did I know you had expressed your displeasure to himself - yet he still goes ahead and does it. So that leads me to ask - how important is the drug to him if he does it despite these things? Thats where you and I start debating the fine lines of addiction!!!

I dont think this makes him a bad person. But I do think he is making bad decisions.

 

[ailbhe]

I don't agree that he is making bad decisions. He is being a tad selfish but again I cannot and would not prohibit him from doing something. The conversation about it only arose when one of his friends asked why I don't touch drugs. I said it was because of my daughter and their point was that he had a daughter and did and that was when I said about how I would feel if something happened. He doesn't feel there is that much of a risk so is happy to continue. It is not a risk I am willing to take but I do believe each to their own. I wouldn't even have one drink if I was driving where others would have one or two and think it was fine because they were under the limit. Everyone has a different fear factor and I am a cautious person. So is he usually but this is one risk he takes.

 

[shnaek]

Ailbhe, you are fighting a loosing battle here. Drug use has been debated many times here and in other boards, and it inevitably ends up on some merry-go-round with moral indignation, accusation, reason, explanation and legality all going into the mix and coming out in the same messy state.

For some people, legality is reason enough not to do a thing. Those are the people who - if they lived in Saudi Arabia now - would be staunchly defending the laws of that land. Or Afghanistan the same. They are not the type of people who change the world, or who change society. And all the best to them.

For some people, interference in the lives of others is enough reason to do a thing. I don't like you doing X,Y,Z - so I am going to take measures to stop you from doing it.

For some people FEAR is a reason.

Lack of understanding is a reason.

Small mindedness is a reason.

And as for shame - well, bringing shame upon a family results in a good auld stoning in some places. I am sure society was ashamed of Meister Eckhart when he was condemned as a heretic, or Wilde when he was found to be gay. The opinion of society is not a yard stick with which to measure anyone.

You will find yourself going round and round in circles on this matter, but fair play to you for trying!

 

[truthseeker]

I don't agree that he is making bad decisions. He is being a tad selfish but again I cannot and would not prohibit him from doing something. The conversation about it only arose when one of his friends asked why I don't touch drugs. I said it was because of my daughter and their point was that he had a daughter and did and that was when I said about how I would feel if something happened. He doesn't feel there is that much of a risk so is happy to continue. It is not a risk I am willing to take but I do believe each to their own. I wouldn't even have one drink if I was driving where others would have one or two and think it was fine because they were under the limit. Everyone has a different fear factor and I am a cautious person. So is he usually but this is one risk he takes.

You have said its a worry of yours and the fact you choose not to for the reasons you outline contradict you saying he is not making bad decisions?

Is it expensive (just curious?).

What will happen if he 'grows up' (bad term but similar to what you were saying earlier about hangovers not being worth it as you get older etc..), and still wants to use? Will you accept it later in life?

Or what if he stops with the E and moves to something different for a buzz? How would you feel about that?

 

[ailbhe]

You have said its a worry of yours and the fact you choose not to for the reasons you outline contradict you saying he is not making bad decisions?

Is it expensive (just curious?).

What will happen if he 'grows up' (bad term but similar to what you were saying earlier about hangovers not being worth it as you get older etc..), and still wants to use? Will you accept it later in life?

Or what if he stops with the E and moves to something different for a buzz? How would you feel about that?

It is a worry of mine. Same as whenever he gets into the car (young male drivers) even though he is a safe driver and has a full licence, small car etc. I worry about him. And i worry about other family too. Thats normal.

It's not expensive. €5 a pill. Cheaper than a pint.

If he gets older and wants to continue, I won't stop him. If he wanted to buy a ferrari I wouldn't be happy but it's his life and I'm not going to tell him how to live it.

If he stopped with the E and moved onto something else i would have a problem depending on what it was. He may decide to start drinking. Fine so long as he doesn't abuse it. i would express my reservations about him trying something like cocaine. I don't see him moving onto anything else. He takes E so rarely it still has an affect for him. He tried LSD once years ago and had a bad experience and still shudders at the memory so I don't think he would be keen to try anything. He doesn't like the idea of cocaine because of the dangers and risk of getting addicted. It is not a case of him doing anything for a buzz. He has his limits too but they are set by himself, not by me.

 

[Ceist Beag]

<snip>
For some people FEAR is a reason.
</snip>

shnaek you're missing one here and it shouldn't be confused with fear. Some (I would argue the majority) people won't/don't try drugs because of a lack of knowledge of what is in them or what they can do to you. That is not fear. That is a responsible attitude. Why would you take something where you don't know what is in it, don't know what might happen you after you take it, and worse again could seriously damage yourself? This talk of recreational use ... it only takes one bad pill or whatever, that's all. Ailbhe you mention your hubby had a bad experience with LSD - he can count himself lucky that's all it was. I'm not trying to be hysterical or anything but personally I think it's a risk not worth taking.

 

[ailbhe]

shnaek you're missing one here and it shouldn't be confused with fear. Some (I would argue the majority) people won't/don't try drugs because of a lack of knowledge of what is in them or what they can do to you. That is not fear. That is a responsible attitude. Why would you take something where you don't know what is in it, don't know what might happen you after you take it, and worse again could seriously damage yourself? This talk of recreational use ... it only takes one bad pill or whatever, that's all. Ailbhe you mention your hubby had a bad experience with LSD - he can count himself lucky that's all it was. I'm not trying to be hysterical or anything but personally I think it's a risk not worth taking.

Again though, that is my reasoning for wanting it legalised. The main problem with drugs (aside from addiction) is the things they are mixed with.
Legalisation puts a stop to that. People shouldn't have to take risks like that if they want to take drugs.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Again though, that is my reasoning for wanting it legalised. The main problem with drugs (aside from addiction) is the things they are mixed with.
Legalisation puts a stop to that. People shouldn't have to take risks like that if they want to take drugs.

Can't agree with ye there Ailbhe. What about what the drugs do to you? There's hardly a body of research to suggest they don't harm you? Until such time I can't see anyone wanting to legalise them. And until such time people should be more responsible and not take them .. in my opinion!

 

[truthseeker]

It is a worry of mine. Same as whenever he gets into the car (young male drivers) even though he is a safe driver and has a full licence, small car etc. I worry about him. And i worry about other family too. Thats normal.

It's not expensive. €5 a pill. Cheaper than a pint.

If he gets older and wants to continue, I won't stop him. If he wanted to buy a ferrari I wouldn't be happy but it's his life and I'm not going to tell him how to live it.

If he stopped with the E and moved onto something else i would have a problem depending on what it was. He may decide to start drinking. Fine so long as he doesn't abuse it. i would express my reservations about him trying something like cocaine. I don't see him moving onto anything else. He takes E so rarely it still has an affect for him. He tried LSD once years ago and had a bad experience and still shudders at the memory so I don't think he would be keen to try anything. He doesn't like the idea of cocaine because of the dangers and risk of getting addicted. It is not a case of him doing anything for a buzz. He has his limits too but they are set by himself, not by me.

I dont think the driving Vs drug taking is a balanced comparison. Driving itself as an act doesnt alter his mind or potentially full him full of posion. Sure there could be an accident - but something could fall on your head while walking down the street - driving Vs drug taking is comparing apples and oranges.

wow that IS cheap. How long would that last (how many hours high from 1 pill?).
This is probably a silly question but Im curious again - would be be starving after coming down off E? I always imagine with the amount of energy one would expend on it youd be ready to eat a horse.

How did he get into it in the first place?

I know my above questions are off the main debate we were having, but its interesting.

Im only thinking out loud here Ailbhe and I could be totally off the mark but it sounds to be like you have accepted it based on exposure to it and no bad things happening - youre just sort of 'used to it'. That in itself is a way in which many people fall into drug traps - the taboo of 'illegality' gets broken with something 'easy' like hash, so its not such a big deal to try something different because the hardest part was in breaking the taboo to begin with.

I think people have fairly convoluted webs of morality based on environment and genetic make up - and no two would match.

Its surprising to me that you say you wouldnt like him trying coke but youre accepting of E - whereas I lump them in the same boat you know?

But I wonder - now your E taboo is broken, if he told you one morning that the previous evening he'd had a little coke - would it be easier to bring you around to a level of acceptance given that you already had to break the taboos to accept the E?

 

[shnaek]

And until such time people should be more responsible and not take them .. in my opinion!

I appreciate your point of view. But is opinion enough to make a certain act (possibly harmful to the individual but not necessarily harmful to others) illegal?

 

[ailbhe]

I don't know how I would react. I wouldn't know that until it happened. I might think I would react one way and actually feel another way.

My analogy for worrying about him driving and worrying about him taking E is not comparable in your opinion but it is my way of showing what way I worry about his drug usage. I worry that he may take a pill and have a reaction on the same level as i worry he will have an accident. It may be like comparing apples and oranges but I was just trying to put across that I worry that something will happen. I don't spend my days and nights worrying about it but it is something that crosses my mind on occasion. I would imagine this is true of most people and their family, drugs or not.

I don't know how long it lasts. It varies from person to person but he would usually take a half and another half later. other people who use more frequently would need more. I think it actually supresses your appetite but I'm not sure.

He "got into it" when he left home and moved into a shared house with some other people. He was a DJ and it sort of went hand in hand with the scene they were involved in. It emphasises the music so you "feel" the music (so he says). I was never into that scene so never got around to trying it.

As for my acceptance level, it probably is a little higher now than when I was younger but I think everyones acceptance levels alter as they get older depending on their experiences. There are many things we vow we would NEVER accept in a job, a relationship, etc but when they are on your doorstep and you are living with the reality of it, your ideals and your feelings tend to conflict.
Like people who vow they would leave their partner if they were cheated on...the reality is very different to how you think it would be.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I appreciate your point of view. But is opinion enough to make a certain act (possibly harmful to the individual but not necessarily harmful to others) illegal?

Put it another way shnaek - would you agree with making something legal when you don't know whether or not it is harmful to people?

On a lighter note, had to laugh - on The Last Word they were talking about new legislation for dealing with drivers on drugs ... hope you weren't listening Ailbhe!

 

[shnaek]

Put it another way shnaek - would you agree with making something legal when you don't know whether or not it is harmful to people?

I understand your point, and I am simply playing devils advocate here by saying that you would have to handle each case on it's merits.

For example (going hard core!) it appears that heroin is not harmful to your health. What is harmful to one's health is illegal heroin, because in most cases it isn't pure.

Is heroin damaging to an individuals life? More than likely. Being high on heroin all the time would hardly make them a productive member of society! Is that enough reason to make it illegal? Or would we be better off if strict government bodies handled the sale of heroin, and attempted to wean the users off it by means other than throwing them in the slammer. Perhaps then we would be less likely to be mugged or robbed by an addict who is trying to make enough money to score from the local drug dealer.

I realise of course that this will never happen - even if the Lord Himself came down and said it was a good idea. It will never happen because the entire world would have to do it - otherwise the countries which took this step would end up importing all the junkies of the world.

Perhaps we could try the experiment on an uninhabited island...

 

[ailbhe]

On a lighter note, had to laugh - on The Last Word they were talking about new legislation for dealing with drivers on drugs ... hope you weren't listening Ailbhe!

Hey now. I never condoned taking drugs and driving!

 

[truthseeker]

I don't know how I would react. I wouldn't know that until it happened. I might think I would react one way and actually feel another way.

My analogy for worrying about him driving and worrying about him taking E is not comparable in your opinion but it is my way of showing what way I worry about his drug usage. I worry that he may take a pill and have a reaction on the same level as i worry he will have an accident. It may be like comparing apples and oranges but I was just trying to put across that I worry that something will happen. I don't spend my days and nights worrying about it but it is something that crosses my mind on occasion. I would imagine this is true of most people and their family, drugs or not.

I don't know how long it lasts. It varies from person to person but he would usually take a half and another half later. other people who use more frequently would need more. I think it actually supresses your appetite but I'm not sure.

He "got into it" when he left home and moved into a shared house with some other people. He was a DJ and it sort of went hand in hand with the scene they were involved in. It emphasises the music so you "feel" the music (so he says). I was never into that scene so never got around to trying it.

As for my acceptance level, it probably is a little higher now than when I was younger but I think everyones acceptance levels alter as they get older depending on their experiences. There are many things we vow we would NEVER accept in a job, a relationship, etc but when they are on your doorstep and you are living with the reality of it, your ideals and your feelings tend to conflict.
Like people who vow they would leave their partner if they were cheated on...the reality is very different to how you think it would be.

Im certainly getting an education here on the day to day realities of E, never knew it helped you 'feel' the music.

Yes yes, peoples acceptance levels change and every situation has particular nuances and nothing is black and white. Reality has a nasty way of being different than you thought it would be sometimes.

Im still kinda feeling that there is more about it you dont like than you say - maybe its the whole 'actions speak louder than words' thing, you dont do it, youre not open with your family about it, there are ground rules that he is not allowed near his child while on it, you have expressed your displeasure to him, etc....

i dunno - something is tingling in me that much as you defend it and say its ok, its his life etc...that somewhere in there you actually feel there is something wrong about it.

what would happen if he was on it and something serious happened (god forbid) that required his presence, like your child having to go to A&E or something? would he just stay away til he was 'sober' (as it were) or would he come regardless?

I have a friend who's sister went into labour while the father of the child was on E at some event or other, he was contacted but told not to come unless he was 'sober' - he ended up missing his childs birth because of it.

If your hubby is not allowed near his child while on it is it that you dont want your child to witness daddy on drugs - but if you think its ok for him to use then why is that a problem? Is his behaviour much different on it - would it be obvious something was different? (cos its not always obvious on casual observation with someone after a spliff or a line of coke)

 

[ajapale]

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ajapale
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