Drugs......is there such a thing as a recreational user?

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ailbhe

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Following on from another thread I was advised to post some of my queries here.......

"I do feel though, that there is a preconception of drug users which is not always true.
Not all are addicts, not all cannot function in their professions due to an occasional use of drugs etc.
People calling me stupid or naiive because I believe this are wrong. I am neither. But in my own experience I have found this to be true. I am aware of the problems and devestation drugs can cause so am not naiive about that. I have seen it. But I don't understand why people refuse to accept that there is such a thing as an occasional drug user. One who goes about every day life, has a job and a family and uses drugs on occasion.

Cigarettes are legal....Why? They do as much damage health wise (though more gradually) than other drugs. They are drugs.
Alcohol is also legal.

If mariijuana was made legal would it then be ok?
I suppose what I am asking is it the illegality if the drugs that is the problem for the other posters or is it the actual drug itself.
For example a person smoking mariijuana in Ireland. Would they fall under the same catagory for you as a person smoking it in Amsterdam where it is illegal?"
 
Hi Ailbhe!

ok - now Im not in the framework of the query of the other post.

Not all are addicts - I agree. However, given the addictive nature of opiate based drugs it would be so easy to move from 'occasional' use to addiction that in my mind - the risk is great.

There are a couple of different strings to this - there is the issue of legality, morality and personal responsibility.
For a professional who is in a job with responsibilities that extend to other people (like a nurse or a teacher) I dont accept its ok for them to spend the weekend on coke and then go to their jobs. There are known side effects of this drug that could affect the persons ability to do their job on a Monday morning - so regardless of it being legal - morally I believe its the wrong choice (I would also say they would be wrong to go into work with a raging hangover). Legally - well its against the law so taking that risk comes down to personal choice - Id prefer not to risk it. Personality responsibility - the dangers are documented - if you wish to go against the law, make a questionable moral choice and possibily endanger your life in the process I guess everyone is entitled to make their own decison on it.

There is certainly such a thing as an occasional drug user - but what do you consider the starting point of addiction?

Cigerattes, alcohol, tea, coffee etc...are all drugs - this thread will get bogged down with historical reasons for these things being legal if we go there - just to illustrate get away from this point, people eat themselves to death and food is good for you so in the context its not really relevant - I assume we are talking about occasional 'illegal drug' users?

Your last point is extremely interesting. To my mind - yes it would be ok to legalise marijuana - because there is no recorded instance of a death from overdose, it is not in the same class as something like cocaine or heroin and it doesnt fundamentally alter someones brain - both heroin and coke produce physical changes in the body - I think marijuana is a lot 'softer' - am I wrong?

However - in the context of Ireland many of the same risks are being taken from the legal viewpoint no matter what the drug so any user is equally as irresponsible (legally) as a harder drug user. Morally - I would feel its not as bad. Personal responsibility - chances of death are much lower so I suppose its 'safer' - but you do still run the risk of not knowing what its been mixed with if you buy it on the street.
 
Personally I would never like to see heroin legalised for obvious reasons.

The issue for me with cocaine, MDMA (ecstasy) and mariijuana is that the main reason people die from using these (aside from overdosing which is another issue) is because they are mixed with unknown substances on the black market. In my opinion, legalising these would ensure control and put a stop to the issues surrounding "supporting drug dealers". People would even be paying tax on them which could go to fund proper addiction centres and treatments.
I don't think that legalising these drugs would lead to any higher usage than we already have as they are so readily available.And I don't think people realise the extent of use either. I would have been very "drugs = bad people" until I was about 19 and I met some people in a new job who really opened my eyes to the fact that people use drugs and aren't necessarily scum of the earth.

I do agree about the effect it has at work. But I think if someone drinks all weekend then going into work with a raging hangover is unacceptable. But if someone has a few drinks friday or saturday night and is hungover sunday and fine by Monday then they are not being irresponsible.
The same applies to taking drugs and the after effects.

On the overdosing, well, there will always be people who do things in excess, drinking, eating, etc. Education (in the same manner as the "drink responsibly" campaigns) would be necessary if these drugs were ever legalised. Restricting places drugs can be taken, the amounts that can be bought at any one time and a higher age limit (depending on the drug) like 21 or higher would all be necessary also.
 
But if you wouldnt like to see heroin legalised then why would it be ok to see cocaine legalised - there is a fantastic study of rhesus monkeys which shows they will choose cocaine over food or drink even while at the point of death - while those on heroin would choose the food over the heroin if they were hungry - Im simply saying, cocaine has higher 'addictive' properties (in my opinion).

I agree with the idea of legalisation in principle for marijuana - but I genuinely believe that coke and heroin are too dangerous to legalise - I dont know a whole lot about MDMA but the whole 'gurning' and dehydration thing is quite off putting for me.
Interestingly there are statistics to prove (source The Pursuit of Oblivion - cant remember author offhand) which show that in the years when raves were at their highest in the UK, newspapers claimed that thousands of users died from drug abuse. The actal figures were 226 people in the year 1997, 97 of which died from overdose of paracetemol or other over the counter drug, 100 odd from heroin overdose - but only something like 6 people died from E - compared to the same year which had stats from hospitals of 20,000 deaths from alcohol abuse. So in terms of safety it would appear that E is probably not as life threatening as one might imagine.

Ailbhe - you are making good points but you are missing a distinction (i think), I dont think its good for someone to abuse drink, anymore than its good to abuse drugs, but abusing drink is not going to get you into trouble with the law for posession and possibly ruin chances of travel, certain jobs and shame/embarrassment on your family over being in trouble with the law - so with the current legal system i think its a no brainer that the drug user (whether occasional or heavily addicted) is behaving in a much more irresponsible manner - there is more at risk.
 
I agree about the element of risk in terms of the illegality of drugs like ecstacy and mariijuana. But I think it is stupid that people have to take that risk when drugs like alcohol and nicotine are socially acceptable and legal.
To be honest I'm not sure I would be happy with my partner using cocaine. Mostly because (lets be honest here) a garda will overlook it if they find you with one or two tabs of ecstacy. they will confiscate it and send you on your way, possibly with a flea in your ear. They won't be lenient if you have 20 tabs on you.
With cocaine though, they do come down harder and you are more likely to end up in court over it.
I would have thought that heroin was more addictive than cocaine as I have met many a cocaine user who just uses it " recreationally" but have never encountered someone who has tried heroin once and not fallen into the addiction trap. Perhaps the addiction to cocaine is stronger but you are more likely to become addicted to heroin? Just a thought. No scientific evidence to back that up!

My main bug bear with the other post was people maintaining that it was not possible to be a drug user and not an addict. I was told I was naiive and pretty much stupid for my view. But that is my experience. My point was also missed about the misuse of leagal substance. I asked which was preferable. My partner occasionally using an illegal substance or abusing a legal one. I was told the two were not comparable, but the point I was trying to make was that, of all the flaws that a person can have, occasionally using drugs is not the worst.
Personally I would prefer to be with someone who was an occasional user of an illegal substance than be with someone who was addicted to a legal substance (such as ciggarettes, alcohol, gambling etc).
So he may not be perfect but in society I would be told to stand by my man if he had a gambling/alcohol problem but told to run away as quickly as possible if he had a drug problem.
It is the perception of all drug users and the seediness of it that bothers me most. People picture all drug users as some greasy haired, dirty fingernailed, skinny, tracksuit wearing guy with a baseball cap hanging around alleyways, robbing handbags......
Not a family man with a good job, happy life and own home etc.
 
Some excellent points here.

Im trying to think within the framework that actually exists today - i.e., whats legal and what isnt.
Agreed - the risk compared to the action is probably over the top for certain illegal drugs.

I think the science backs up the notion that cocaine is more addictive - but of course in all situations one would have to consider the individual taking that risk - some people would form an addiction more easily - I would imagine for heroin users (possibly the least 'socially acceptable' drug) that they are getting into heroin after a history of drug use whereas because cocaine has become more of a 'party culture' type of drug there are people taking it in the company of professionals and they themselves may have no history with drugs? Im just thinking aloud - nothing to back it up, but from a social viewpoint if a good friend (professional) offered you heroin youd be more shocked than if he offered you cocaine right?
So it would appear cocaine is more socially acceptable in certain circles?

I think the issue of occasional user Vs addict depends on where you draw your baseline - what do you thinks constitutes addiction? To me (from the other thread) if a guy is doing coke on his wedding day, an occasion attended by close family and friends - he is not just an occasional user - he is an addict.

I dont think one can compare using drugs and abusing alcohol - there are too many other factors to do with legality for it to be a fair comparison - but to remove legal issues for a moment - lets pretend its all legal - then an occasional user of anything is less bad than an abuser (again depending on what constitutes abuse). I dont think anyone would think that occasional use of a drug is the worst thing someone can do - but in todays society it brings repercussions that could potentially affect many people which immediately pushes it up the scale of stupidity.

Its over simplifying it to say people would tell you to stand by an alcohol or gambling problem - they would probably tell you to stand by as long as the alcoholic or gambler was making efforts to sort the addicition but if they kept going back to it surely any reasonable person would tell you to run?

In todays society any illegal drug user is a criminal - and in peoples minds that brings up someone of the description you describe. And if he is a happy man with a happy home etc...he is lucky cos the next hit could lose him everything.

The biggest question I have asked you though is - what constitutes addiction?
 
ailbhe, I agree that there is a huge amount of hypocricy in the "War Against Drugs" which is impossible to win. If people wanna put something into their bodies that makes them feel better, then they'll do it. Be it nicotine, caffine, sugar, alcohol, THC, MDMA, opiates etc...
I thought the most right-wing knee-jerk reaction to drugs has been over the last couple of years when first magic mushrooms were made illegal (in which case, arrest every farmer in the country, cos they are probably growing them somewhere on the farm) and the whole 'poor Katie French' debacle.
Shrooms never did anything for me, but they're there on the ground. Why should it be illegal to stick something in yer gob that grows wild and naturally in Irelands fields?
Cocaine in Ireland is becoming like the 'Reefer Madness' in the USA.
All the dealers are bad and it's 'poor Katie French'. Well, why has nobody been charged with anything in relation to that media furore ?
I don't agree in Heroin being legalised unless under extremely tight circumstances. It's very easy for people to OD on it. However, the wierd thing is that long term, it does no damage to you (if you stop, obviously) but fags and drink are completely different. So we're taking a short term look at problems, as is the Irish way and leave the consequences for another generation/govt administration to deal with.
Don't smoke weed, or you'll have psychological problems. Well tbh, what about those people beating lumps out of each other on a Saturday night....you ever see a stoner fight ? Me neither, they couldn't be bothered.
Solpadeine. Contains an opiate in Codeine. Very addictive and people are popping Solpadeine as a refreshing drink. One bad and illegal, one good and legal. 100 years ago, Morphine was for everyone, now it's only in medical use. Coca Cola had cocaine as an ingredient. Maybe we'll find out that caffeine will be banned in another 100 years.
 
"The biggest question I have asked you though is - what constitutes addiction?"

Well, addiction is where a person has a reliance on something, where their body craves it and they suffer withdrawel symptoms if they cannot have it (mental or physical).
Where you will use it even though it is causing problems in your life. I suppose to simplify it is where you know you should stop but cannot.

So in my opinion there are thousands of people who are drug users but not addicts.

I don't know that cocaine is more acceptable in certain social circles. I think it is more about the effects of the drug.

The sought-after effects of cocaine are -
  • a feeling of well-being, exhilaration and euphoria;
  • increased alertness and energy; and
  • delayed hunger and fatigue.
Heroin effects are
  • Heroin slows down body functioning and substantially reduces physical and psychological pain. Most users get a rush or buzz a few minutes after taking it. A small dose of heroin gives the user a feeling of warmth and well-being. Bigger doses can make the user sleepy and very relaxed.
  • The first dose of heroin can bring about dizziness and vomiting
So I suppose the effects are what has cocaine seen as the party drug and because of this it is used on a social scene and is seen as somewhat more accesible to the "normal" folk.
Heroin isn't going to be used on a night out because of the effects it has (the sleepiness etc) so I would imagine it is used moreso by people with problems who are trying to escape those problems(as highlighted it reduces psychological pain) as opposed to a person just trying to "have a good time".

I don't know if I'm putting that across very well and it is just my opinion as to why cocaine is seen as slightly more socially acceptable than heroin.
 
The laws of the land- Drugs are illegal.
Anybody who buys illegal drugs no matter how small, even if it's for a little bit on a Friday/Saturday night is partly responsible for the organised crime wave in this country.

If people did not buy the drugs them the incentive for gangs to kill and intimidate people would be reduced.

In my opinion the people that take illegal drugs are as bad as the people who supply them. One feeds off the other.
 

I see your point but my point is why are they illegal when they cause no more harm than alcohol or cigarettes which are sold in supermarkets and surely the best way to get rid of the criminal element is to legalise and monitor them.
 
Just to use the case of your partner Ailbhe (if you dont mind - if you do Ill edit this post).

E a couple of times a year at big events. What would his reaction be if you asked him not to. Would he still go to the events? Would he be angry? Would the enjoyment of the event be lessened by not taking it? Would it cause a problem in your relationship?

If he shrugged and still went and still had a good time then he clearly doesnt have an addiction - but that does not diminish the fact that there is a level of irresponsibility in him using at all because of the possible (a) legal consequences and (b) risk of impure or dangerous toxins in the E he has procured. (and yes if you remove both of those factors i.e., make it legal - then I cant see a problem in his personal choices any worse than someone having 2 pints at an event)

If the act of asking him not to do it causes anger, he would rather not go etc... then I would be inclined to think he is displaying the behaviour of addiction.

Oh I definitely think cocaine is seen as more socially acceptable - most likely for the reasons you say - if we went to a party and everyone was strung out on heroin and sleepy it would not be a festive athmosphere at all!! Whereas for the most part the coke users would be over confident and full of energy and having a ball - but there is a serious issue in there of that overconfidence turning to arrogance and the person is likely to anger very easily (in someone pre-disposed, same as some people get agressive when they drink) - but for the most part the coke party would be more fun than the heroin party. I suppose that is exactly why it has become more of a party drug - also isnt coke more expensive than heroin so if you were to choose your addiction - its be cheaper to be a heroin addict than a coke addict? Mind you in the states the main drug of addiction associated with 'bums' on the streets is crack cocaine - so perhaps thats cheaper over there, and possibly has different effects than 'party' cocaine?

Back to the original question of 'can someone be a recreational user?'.
If their drug of choice is legal, if they dont indulge in such a way that it has an impact on their lives or the lives of those close to them - then yes, Im sure someone can be. But the number of variables in there depending on different drugs, their effects, legal questions etc... makes it a much more complicated issue and the simple fact of the matter is that cocaine (for example) has addictive qualities, so someone who uses occasionally is going to find it very difficult not to increase usage because as they build up tolerance they need more for the same high, and more to counteract the comedown, and more money to support the habit.....on and on into full blown addiction. Im sure its possible not to be an addict - but its not a risk Id personally like to expose myself to and I would be very concerned about anyone close to me who told me they were occasionally using.
 
Again, I would prefer he didn't but he doesn't drink or smoke or go out often so as stated it really is his one vice.
Your question as to whether he would stop if I asked is difficult.
There are a few reasons why.
If I asked him to stop (with the way things stand at the moment) I think he would be annoyed as it doesn't interfere with our lives and he wouldn't be annoyed at not being able to take the drugs but more that I was telling him what to do.
If it were causing a problem and he knew this and I asked him to stop I think he would but the only way I can see it causing a problem is if he has a problem (is becoming dependent/taking harder drugs) in which case it may be difficult for him to give up.

He has often gone to gigs and not taken anything (because he is driving/coming home/has work the next day).

I do have ground rules (such as he must stay elsewhere if he has taken something as we have kids, he can never bring them into the house or be near us when he has taken something and if I am out with him he can't take anything). He adheres to these and has no problem with it and only takes something if he is away for the weekend (at a festival or something) so I don't have any worries about him being addicted.
 
Niallers said:
In my opinion the people that take illegal drugs are as bad as the people who supply them. One feeds off the other.
Click to expand...

That arguement could be extended nearly infinitely to the point of insanity...

> the runners/clothing you buy may cause the death and explotiation by overwork of many poor asians
> the stuff you recycle might ultimately end up for sorting by poor kids in india
> the biofuel you burn causes the price of food to double/triple in the third world
> the packaging you dispose of into landfill might trap a bird and kill it!!!

I agree that illegal drugs fund organised crime. That is precisely the core reason for legalising them. Some people will always want to smoke (cigs), drink heavily, pay for sex, do drugs, etc... that is the way the world is. However it is only through recognising these things that a strong legislative and regulatory framework can minimise the harm of these individuals to society as a whole.

As an individual I am strongly against cocaine and heroin being legalised - they are far too dangerous and I believe they are correctly outlawed. I also agree with heavy taxes on tobacoo and drink. However in the case of mariijuana I feel a distinction should be made.

I personally don't use drugs, but I know several people who do. And yes indeed, Marijuana is a gateway drug, but i'd like to argue it is not a "gateway to drugs", but a "gateway to illegality". I know people who have been tempted into useing marijanua - that being their very first major breach of the law and it is in doing so on a regular basis that they have built up a disrespect for the law of the land. I feel once a fundamentally good person goes accross the line of breaking the law once, it is very hard to go back.

As an illegal substance, marijauna funds crime and leads young people who use it to meet more sinister people who inevitably push much harder drugs onto them and eventually turn them into criminals in their own right. Legalised like the current (soon to be reveresed) system in amsterdam, marijauna dealership could be taken away from criminals and regulated tightly.

As I said before, I don't use drugs personally, but as a student I know many who do; they are dealing with dodgy people and smoking a substance that is often mixed with glass and god knows what.

I suppose i'll finish by saying Prohibition was a huge success in NYC in the 20's, eh?

EDIT: On the original point from the OP, yes I think you can be a recreational user of weed, drink, cigs etc.... but not of cocaine, heroin, etc... this is again based on what i've seen in college and school.
 
Yeah I understand what you mean about the asking to stop - however you actually answered my question in another way - if he doesnt use cos he is driving/work next day etc.. then that would indicate he doesnt have an addiction.

On a slightly side issue - I dont understand how he can expose himself to the possible dangers of 'bad' drugs (for want of a better word) that could potentially kill him - especially when he has children!!! To me that just screams irresponsible - he could deprive his children of a father so easily because he chooses to use an illegal drug!!!
How do you justify this to yourself, given you have been quite open minded and up front about the the fact that its the toxins mixed in the E that are problematic - not the drug itself?
 
truthseeker said:
Back to the original question of 'can someone be a recreational user?'.
If their drug of choice is legal, if they dont indulge in such a way that it has an impact on their lives or the lives of those close to them - then yes, Im sure someone can be..
Click to expand...

I don't see the relevance of the legality of it. If you can consume something on occasion, be it Cocaine or Coca Cola, and not feel a psychological or physical need to consume it again asap, then I would class that as a recreational user.

The psychological addictiveness of cocaine is strong however, and that makes the 'weaker minded' easier to become physically addicted. (Addictive personalities, if you will).

BUT, many people will also tell you that cocaine is easy to acquire, much easier now than the softer drugs as I suppose the profitability is higher considering however many times it's 'cut' with cheap agents.

Also, I love the way that Michael McDowells "take drugs and you are personally responsible for the gang deaths" arguement has been adopted by Joe Public as the ultimate moral high ground.

OK then, use Shell fuel and you are personally responsible for the pollution and violent guerilla warfare in the Niger Delta. Come on !!!
 


I don't justify it and have said it to him to be honest. I have said "think how angry I would be if you died from taking a pill, the shame that Ailbhe Jnr would feel when she grows up and found out what had killed you". This was more at the start of our relationship. It is still a worry of mine but I am hoping he will eventually just stop. We are both mid 20s so he is still quite yound and when I met him first his use was much more frequent. As he gets older and more sensible his use has decreased.
I liken it to young guys who get drunk every weekend(leaving the legalities out of it). You do get to the point where the hangovers aren't worth it and you tend to indulge only at "special occasions" like weddings or birthdays. He no longer indulges every time he goes clubbing, only when it is a "special event".


On an aside, our-soon-to-be-leader, Brian Cowen has previously admitted to smoking spamspamspam. I wonder whether we will end up having a tribunal about that
 
 

Thats where you and I differ Ailbhe - I just would not accept it at all with that kind of risk involved and I would not be in the relationship. Accepting it (regardless of ground rules) is sending the message that its 'ok'. And given the circumstances you have outlined - I wouldnt feel it was ok at all. Surely his children are more important to him than risking his life at an event?

Something you said earlier is interesting too (maybe in the other thread). You wouldnt tell your family he uses? So somewhere inside yourself you know it must be wrong and that they would judge him and perhaps think less of him - otherwise why is it not out in the open?
 

I also said in that post that my family were the type who think drugs = scumbags so I prefer that they don't know as I will get a hard time over it as will he.
As for him taking them even though we have a child.....well, people do stupid things. What can I say? I don't think that a good relationship should be thrown away because of one thing he does that I don't approve of. Better or worse and all that. And as you said in your earlier post, the risk associated with E is not that high. 6 out of 226. And of those how many were caused by dehydration as opposed to the actual drug?
 
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