Driving Offence not the same as one on Fine

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SPUDZ

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Hi
Any advice appreciated! I was stopped by a garda for driving on the hard shoulder the day after the new penalty points came in.He said my offence was for driving on the hard shoulder and that I would receive the fine of 80euro and 2 penalty points. And alas it arrived in the post today!

However, the fine states that my alledged offence was for "overtaking on the left". I am wondering what constitutes "overtaking on the left". Firstly I am guilty of driving on the hard shoulder...but as for overtaking/or undertaking which ever word is best suited! then I feel I was not. I was using the hardshoulder to make a left turn.

The garda never mentioned anything to me about overtaking.My offence was strictly for driving on the hard shoulder. Which incidently I challenged him about at the time. Told him that driving on the hard shoulder is only an offence punishable by penalty points if it is on a motorway.

My feeling is that he realised his mistake and the only other offence he could "do" me for , was for overtaking on the left.

My question is...my offence according to the garda at the time of the incident is different from that stated on my fine. Should I challenge this in court. Also is there any other way to correct this thus avoiding court? I cant really wait around for a day in court as it could take months... Im immigrating in 2 months time.However I feel really strongly about this and would like to challenge it.

Any thoughts/advice on what to do.
 
I don't see the point - you drove on the hard shoulder, thus passing (otherwise known as overtaking) the cars waiting in the proper left-hand turn lane.

I'm not sure how you could contest it?
 
Ah but the point is that there isn't a proper left hand turn lane as you put it. The hardshoulder becomes the left hand lane...as the hardshoulder ends it becomes a third lane for left turn only. My point is that I was not accused of dangerous overtaking etc when the garda stopped me...I was accused of driving on hardshoulder.
 
Fair enough, but ultimately it is your word against the garda. Like a lot of these things, you will have to prove your statement is correct, especially as you do admit to an offence (although you say you weren't accused of this at the time)
 
and just to add..driving on the hard shoulder is NOT punishable by penalty points (not on a dual carriage way...yes on a motorway...I was not on a motorway)

However...dangerous overtaking is punishable by 2 points....which Im assuming overtaking on the left is considered "dangerous overtaking"!

So it appears like the garda realised his mistake when I challenged him on the issue...and this was the only other offence he could stick on me.

If I was guilty of dangerous overtaking, should he not tell me this at the time of the incident? not just change the offence on paper to suit.

Its becoming all the more obvious now the real reason behind the new enalty points. Nothing to do with road safty and saving lives. Money making racket as shown by the lovely glossy leaflet that arrived with the fine called "Better Ways to Pay"!!! - a complete list of options on how and where to pay your fine!!!You might imagine they would try to be a little more subtle about their motives!!!
 
Sun Sparks
I had two passengers with me at the time...so plenty evidence of the exact conversation that took place!
 
To be honest I can't see this geting to court within 6 months. You have 56 days to cough up and after that is court. 3 to 4 months after the 56 days is the earliest I could see it coming up unless the garda concerned is exteremly hot on these matters or it is a rural area where the courts are less busy.

It's up to you which way you want to go.
 
There is no obligation to have the case heard in the district court within six months (Bond-007). Many cases take a lot lot longer than six months from the date of the alleged offence to conclusion. However, the complainant Garda usually must make a complaint(i.e. particulars of the alleged offence) to the district court office within six months of the alleged offence. The actual court date can, and usually is outside the six month period.

To be honest, the vast majority of these types of fixed penalty offences which are not paid will result in a summons, so I think you must expect to have to appear in the district court. There is the very real prospect that the garda will not appear in the DC, in which case you can ask the judge to strike the matter out, although judges seem increasingly willing to adjourn the matter to a later date, if it is another no show than you ask again for the matter to be struck out and that should be the end of it.

If the garda bothers to turn up at court, and you contest the offence, then it is quite difficult to predict the outcome. District Judges are notoriously whimsical, while you probably have an arguable case, you should definitely bring along the witnesses and hope for the best. There really are no guarantees. Good luck.
 
The courts are there for the citizen. Don't be put off if you feel you have a legitimate grevience the district court should facilitate you.

In my case I got 4 points for seatbelt (no fixed penalty notice) I was in the wrong but was unprepared to accept 4 points which meant going to court and appealing everything, lost in district and won on appeal in circuit. Summons was incorrect...so ended up with no points.

You have to have a basic grasp of the law, when the sunmmons comes examine all the details carefuly, check what offence you are accuse dof abnd look up the actual act or statutory instrument...they're all on www.bailii.org

My experience is the judge and the elgal people don't even bring the legislation to court! in one case they referred to a book!

Of course if you loose in court points will be increased!

NB I am not a lawyer and offfer these comments in a general discursive way and they should not be contstrued as legal or any other type of professional advice

MMCL
 
Did you represent yourself for both hearings?

I would conclude that one will always loose in the district courts, and 90% win on appeal in the circuit courts.
 
YES

Judges really vary in their reaction to this, District Court guy didn't care, 1st circuit ct. woman was extremely hostile while second (it was put back a week) thought it was great.

Even when they are been difficult you have to remember you have an absolute constitutional right to represent yourself, it may have been easier for me as I studied a bit of law a few years ago but this was of very little relevance to the proceedures which we didn't cover.

I think the internet is a real advantage to the lay litigant now. I wonder is there a business in lay litigation services or is it illegal?

BTW many of the people I saw in front of me may have been better of doing it themselves, I found the quality of representation very poor, Lawyers were getting briefs as they sat waiting for case to be called and often made a mess, some judges wouldn't allow accused to speak to them if they were represented (although you could see the logic of this). Suprisingly I found the quality of the judges very good, in terms of weighing up different issues and usually giving out a fair result, particulalry impressed that they were willing to pull up Gardai where necessary
 
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