ubiquitous
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
I think that was sfag's point all along.
I think that was sfag's point all along.
Domestic Energy: Myths and Misconceptions
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sydthebeat
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
fair enough, but you cant discount the scientific basis because of the marketing stragety.....
sfags statement "If it doesent make sense in your brain in all probability it wont work" is really ridiculous. Im sitting in front of a computer that i have no understanding about how it actually works and how information is stored on a physical material... but i KNOW it works.
To take sfags view point we'd still be living in caves!!
I think that was sfag's point all along.
fair enough, but you cant discount the scientific basis because of the marketing stragety.....
sfags statement "If it doesent make sense in your brain in all probability it wont work" is really ridiculous. Im sitting in front of a computer that i have no understanding about how it actually works and how information is stored on a physical material... but i KNOW it works.
To take sfags view point we'd still be living in caves!!
ubiquitous
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
I think you are misinterpreting his point. Its quite possible to watch TV without knowing or being aware of the technology that enables the TV to work. This is not the same as gut feelings. If someone arrives at my door offering me a magic TV that will work without electricity or an aerial, my gut feeling will tell me that he is bluffing. I don't need to be a TV technology expert to decide this. In most (but not all) cases my gut feeling will be correct. Remember that even the most eminent experts rely on their gut feelings as well. Sometimes they get it wrong. Most times they get it right.
I think you are misinterpreting his point. Its quite possible to watch TV without knowing or being aware of the technology that enables the TV to work. This is not the same as gut feelings. If someone arrives at my door offering me a magic TV that will work without electricity or an aerial, my gut feeling will tell me that he is bluffing. I don't need to be a TV technology expert to decide this. In most (but not all) cases my gut feeling will be correct. Remember that even the most eminent experts rely on their gut feelings as well. Sometimes they get it wrong. Most times they get it right.
sydthebeat
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
absolutely, thats why in my post i advise to get 'independant' advice...
theres a difference between choosing to use a product or not, and choosing to believe that the product does not work... theres a huge difference actually.
sfag started this thread with some fairly outlandish statements, and whilst he/she may have been trying to make a different point, he/she still needs to back up their claims in order for them to be relevant... and posting a weather forecast isnt exactly prooving a point...
Im in the building trade, i see these products in use every day and no two situations are ever the same. Ive seem people pay fortunes to install geothermal systems into a badly insulated badly constructed houses, install solar panels onto planes of roofs that were not ideal etc....
so my point is, dont discount the science, the science holds up.... just do not believe the sales speak!
absolutely, thats why in my post i advise to get 'independant' advice...
theres a difference between choosing to use a product or not, and choosing to believe that the product does not work... theres a huge difference actually.
sfag started this thread with some fairly outlandish statements, and whilst he/she may have been trying to make a different point, he/she still needs to back up their claims in order for them to be relevant... and posting a weather forecast isnt exactly prooving a point...
Im in the building trade, i see these products in use every day and no two situations are ever the same. Ive seem people pay fortunes to install geothermal systems into a badly insulated badly constructed houses, install solar panels onto planes of roofs that were not ideal etc....
so my point is, dont discount the science, the science holds up.... just do not believe the sales speak!
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
Experts do not rely on gut feeling! They rely on experience, experimentation, fact, peer review, proof and conclusions.
Experts design the aircraft you fly on. You wouldn't want them to rely on their "gut feeling" that the wings will stay on.
Five years ago your "gut feeling" would tell you that it was impossible to store music on a device the size of a matchbox. Got an iPod?
SSE
Experts do not rely on gut feeling! They rely on experience, experimentation, fact, peer review, proof and conclusions.
Experts design the aircraft you fly on. You wouldn't want them to rely on their "gut feeling" that the wings will stay on.
Five years ago your "gut feeling" would tell you that it was impossible to store music on a device the size of a matchbox. Got an iPod?
SSE
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
Folks. I know I reduce my points to very simple one or two 'black or white one liners but I feel that one has to boil things down at the end of the day to a yes or no answer when facing decisions on what to install when building.
I self built by direct labour a few years a go. I considered all aternatives.
With regard to points one and two I had a kingspan 'expert' standing on my site who - despite selling the insulation - did not recommend I double layer or pay any regards to the foil. They said it disintegrates - yes I was suprised on both accounts.
Take from that what you will.
Yes foil may contribute a little thermal benefit but when the other technology within improves so much 9and it has) I'm guessing it's contribution is reduced to make it not worth considering.
Regarding the wind turbines. I know a green counciller who tried one out and deemed it a failure when considering the cost of installation versus the return.
Regarding heating water - for me its a plain and simple number comparision. My gas bill for the warmest 4 months of the year is a mere €1 a day and that includes towel radiators and cooking hob. I simply cant see how spending the guts of €6000 will improve on that.
I'm undecided on the geothermal route. I know three people with it. Two of them are cold creatures and hardly ever use it so I cant compare their bills.
The third is a new installation and is a house similiar in size and energy consumption to mine. They will also run their heating 24/7 like mine. Mine is gas heated. We both set our room theormostats to 21c. I feel direct comparisions are feasible.
So far their last late autumn bill for electricity equaled my electric and gas combined so its not a success so far. It could be that his unit is generating heat even when the rooms arnt calling for it so I'll wait and see how thing go.
I want it to be a success because I want to switch. I ahve plumbed and wired my house to make the addition of an alternative at some future date doable.
Regarding green alternatives. As long as there is a 10 to 20 year wait on your return they will never succeed in acheiving mass appeal and governments will not promote them.
Folks. I know I reduce my points to very simple one or two 'black or white one liners but I feel that one has to boil things down at the end of the day to a yes or no answer when facing decisions on what to install when building.
I self built by direct labour a few years a go. I considered all aternatives.
With regard to points one and two I had a kingspan 'expert' standing on my site who - despite selling the insulation - did not recommend I double layer or pay any regards to the foil. They said it disintegrates - yes I was suprised on both accounts.
Take from that what you will.
Yes foil may contribute a little thermal benefit but when the other technology within improves so much 9and it has) I'm guessing it's contribution is reduced to make it not worth considering.
Regarding the wind turbines. I know a green counciller who tried one out and deemed it a failure when considering the cost of installation versus the return.
Regarding heating water - for me its a plain and simple number comparision. My gas bill for the warmest 4 months of the year is a mere €1 a day and that includes towel radiators and cooking hob. I simply cant see how spending the guts of €6000 will improve on that.
I'm undecided on the geothermal route. I know three people with it. Two of them are cold creatures and hardly ever use it so I cant compare their bills.
The third is a new installation and is a house similiar in size and energy consumption to mine. They will also run their heating 24/7 like mine. Mine is gas heated. We both set our room theormostats to 21c. I feel direct comparisions are feasible.
So far their last late autumn bill for electricity equaled my electric and gas combined so its not a success so far. It could be that his unit is generating heat even when the rooms arnt calling for it so I'll wait and see how thing go.
I want it to be a success because I want to switch. I ahve plumbed and wired my house to make the addition of an alternative at some future date doable.
Regarding green alternatives. As long as there is a 10 to 20 year wait on your return they will never succeed in acheiving mass appeal and governments will not promote them.
ubiquitous
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
Five years ago, or even ten years ago, my gut feeling was that this was eminently possible. Sure, isn't technology always advancing, and aren't devices always getting smaller and more portable? I'm sure the experts at Apple, Creative et al felt similarly. Otherwise they wouldn't have invested good money in developing the technology.
Indeed, but in any given situation, if their gut feelings are telling them that something is wrong, I would expect them to err on the side of caution, and if necessary ground the plane pending proper investigation.
Five years ago, or even ten years ago, my gut feeling was that this was eminently possible. Sure, isn't technology always advancing, and aren't devices always getting smaller and more portable? I'm sure the experts at Apple, Creative et al felt similarly. Otherwise they wouldn't have invested good money in developing the technology.Indeed, but in any given situation, if their gut feelings are telling them that something is wrong, I would expect them to err on the side of caution, and if necessary ground the plane pending proper investigation.
sydthebeat
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Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
Renewable technologies are now an integral part of new builds. Under 2007 regs 10kwh/m2 of every new build needs to be provided by renewable sources... or 4 kwh/m2 of electricity.
Renewable technologies are now an integral part of new builds. Under 2007 regs 10kwh/m2 of every new build needs to be provided by renewable sources... or 4 kwh/m2 of electricity.
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
But surely this is when you most want hot water from solar as most people have heating on the other months which heats the water.
ruam
But surely this is when you most want hot water from solar as most people have heating on the other months which heats the water.
ruam
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
Lads,
Its posts like this that drive people to get INDEPENDENT advice.
Principals of science can be applied to everything. Regarding solar, its not difficult to find the annual insolation figures for your area. Find your orientation, find your pitch, find independent test results for your tubes/panels, find your occupancy, estimate your hot water use, find the heat loss factor of your tank and finally find your net cost of purchasing the system. You can calculate your payback pretty accuratly based on this.
The same can be applied to wind.
The original post is by and large pure and utter pub talk.
Anyone ever question the payback of a plasma tv, a leather sofa, an SUV?
Solar has a payback, its will be shorter for some and longer for others!
Lads,
Its posts like this that drive people to get INDEPENDENT advice.
Principals of science can be applied to everything. Regarding solar, its not difficult to find the annual insolation figures for your area. Find your orientation, find your pitch, find independent test results for your tubes/panels, find your occupancy, estimate your hot water use, find the heat loss factor of your tank and finally find your net cost of purchasing the system. You can calculate your payback pretty accuratly based on this.
The same can be applied to wind.
The original post is by and large pure and utter pub talk.
Anyone ever question the payback of a plasma tv, a leather sofa, an SUV?
Solar has a payback, its will be shorter for some and longer for others!
Z
z109
Guest
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
On a conservative calculation (i.e. averaging in favour of more usage during the day than night), it has cost about 900 a year for heat and hot water (220 sq metre house).
You might want to wait until the second year, I found my geothermal costs were 25% lower then than the first year (despite prices rising), but then I have a horizontal collector bed and it may be that the soil disturbance took a while to settle back down.
On a conservative calculation (i.e. averaging in favour of more usage during the day than night), it has cost about 900 a year for heat and hot water (220 sq metre house).
Re: Modern myths and misconceptions
It's not pub talk. With current technology, it doesn't make pure financial sense to install solar heating, wind turbines or solar electricity systems - they will need to be replaced before they give a positive return over gas or mains electricity.
Of course not everyone thinks in solely financial terms and they may wish to 'do something for the environment'. They just shouldn't kid themselves that they're doing something for their pocket also.
It's not pub talk. With current technology, it doesn't make pure financial sense to install solar heating, wind turbines or solar electricity systems - they will need to be replaced before they give a positive return over gas or mains electricity.
Of course not everyone thinks in solely financial terms and they may wish to 'do something for the environment'. They just shouldn't kid themselves that they're doing something for their pocket also.