Dole payments should have been cut this week, not increased

SBarrett said:
Society as a whole seems to fail people who are born into poverty and seem quite happy to leave them there.
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I certainly am not happy to leave them there. By paying very high social welfare rates to people who are well capable of working we are condemning them to live in poverty. If we told people under the age of 30 that they would have no social welfare, they would go out to work and break out of the welfare trap.

If we told them that the more they work the better off they will be in the long term, they would be more likely to work.

If we tell them that we will give them high social welfare, almost free housing in the location of their choice, free healthcare, why would they bother working? If they work, they will probably have to pay for their own housing which might well be a long commute away.

Brendan
 
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I'm as Thatcherite as the next duke, but even Mrs. T accepted the need for state provided social protection (insurance, call it what you like). The 19th century model of relying on the private sector through charity is no longer fit for purpose.

The existence of social protection will always give rise to anomalies such as "but if I work or if I save I will give up my entitlement to social protection". So it is important that the incentive to work or save overcomes this anomaly. As I understand the Boss' argument he believes that our regime, when compared to 100 miles up the road, is too generous in that regard and I tend to agree. (Aside: I hope no-one is suggesting a means and merit system whereby applicants are asked what did they spend their money on and why didn't they save.)

Now about this SEPSAIA (state enforced personal savings and insurance account); this is so not Mrs. T. This is nannyism. But it still suffers big time from the above anomaly. Take a person working all their lifetime at a fairly modest income level. Without doing the sums I feel pretty sure that her SEPSAIA would not even achieve a level of OAP at the social protection levels. She should still be no better off than the lifetime dole sponger.o_O
 
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Sorry Brendan but that's a bit of a cop out , it would have been simple to say that the dole can be up to €193 on an age dependent basis.

I appreciate the fact that you were confined to 800 words but surely to unequivocally state that the dole is €193 for a single person when such is simply not the universal case , in my eyes at least , undermines the premise of the article..
 
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I think our short term unemployment benefits are too low and too short term ( max 9 months )
They should be restored to 15 months .

There was a pay related element in the 80s as far as I recall .

Our welfare system for contributory benefits has been cut over the years . Another example ......
Dependent relative on oap contributory began being means tested 5/6 years ago.
 
cremeegg said:
All items of public spending should require public approval to be renewed at regular intervals.​
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It is probably bad manners to quote one's self, but I hope I will be excused.

The change which brought Job Seekers Benefit and Job Seekers Allowance into line was a huge change in the concept of Pay Related Social Insurance. It cut the link between pay and benefit.

This was done without any consultation. A major shift in policy made for idealogical reasons by faceless civil servants. Its not good enough in a democracy.
 
Deiseblue said:
Sorry Brendan but that's a bit of a cop out , it would have been simple to say that the dole can be up to €193 on an age dependent basis.

I appreciate the fact that you were confined to 800 words but surely to unequivocally state that the dole is €193 for a single person when such is simply not the universal case , in my eyes at least , undermines the premise of the article..
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Any update to my question on post #13?
 
Deiseblue said:
to unequivocally state that the dole is €193 for a single person when such is simply not the universal case , in my eyes at least , undermines the premise of the article..
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The message in that section was that the dole in Ireland is significantly higher than the UK (€193 vs. €90). The UK also has a (very) low rate for under 25s (they can get up to £57.90 pw). It would get a bit wordy and unwieldy to have to mention that both systems have rates 'up to' an amount - and it would get the reader wondering that if both systems are 'up to', are we comparing like with like. I think the €193 to €90 comparison is valid and the fact that there is also a €103 to €67 comparison for young people doesn't affect the message.

It's not a large proportion of the unemployed either. Of 246K JSA recipients, 31K are under 25 and 146K are receiving personal rate only - so those on reduced rate make up max. 20% - 25% of JSA single rate recipients? - so 75% - 80% getting full rate.
 
Deiseblue said:
From a quick read , the one thing that leaps off the page is the statement that the dole is €193 for a single person.
It is correct in that the dole for a single person over 26 is €193 per week however that amount does not apply to the large proportion of unemployed aged under 26 who benefit as follows:
Aged 18 -24 €102.70 per week
Aged 25 - €148.70 per week.
Surely , Brendan you should have referred to this in your article for the sake of balance ?
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PRSI should rightly be an insurance payment - not a free handout for anyone.
It is unbelievable that anyone who hasn't worked and paid PRSI contributions gets any money at all, regardless of age.
Why does an 18 year old person have to get any money from the state? Just because the person turned 18?
 
PRSI is not pay related and it's not insurance. Why don't we just have income tax and stop with the nonsense?
The big problem here is that long term rates are as high as short term rates.
 
Okra - to my mind there are two elements here - the unequivocal statement that the dole of €193 applies to every single person has to be challenged as it's palpably incorrect.
Your correct contention that a similar age dependant system applies in the UK is not really valid for comparison purposes if one contends as I do that the benefits system for the unemployed in the UK is not what we should aspire to as I consider their dole payments to be both derisory & shameful .
I think it's to the credit of successive Governments that social welfare payments have been maintained through the bad times & increased , as we have seen recently , in the good times , it is also telling that the level of benefits does not seem to be a bar to taking up employment as the Irish Times reports that full employment may be achieved far in advance of the Government target of 2020.
Now I don't doubt your figures on JSA recipients for a moment but I wonder could you provide a link to same ?
 
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German system of UI

Social insurance = 60% of former net wages for 12 months, 67% if married

After 12 months of unemployment, move to AG II scheme, equivalent to JSA "dole"

Social assistance = 409 pm for a single person

Couples = 368 pm per person

Child 13-18 = 311
Child 6<13 = 291
Child <6 = 237 pm
 
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The Dutch system is pay related social insurance; it is linked to your average income over the last 12 months (75% for first 2 months and 70% after that, up to a maximum of €203.85 per day) and it runs out after a maximum of 36 months, shorter if you haven't been working for very many years. After 6 months on benefits you are obliged to accept any job offer, no matter what it is or what the pay level is.
 
Yes, per month.

Please note that the Health Insurance premium of those on UI or Hartz IV "dole" in Germany is paid by the State.

So no change to your health insurance if you lose a job.

Also, there are housing benefits on top of the ALG II Hartz IV "dole" in Germany.
 
Having been on Dole a couple of times over the years , really made me think about (free) money.
On balance, our flawed system works ok and I really do get the issue of why someone like myself who mostly contributed should not get a % more over a non worker, ergo a lazy git !.
My observation is that there is not a huge cohort of lazy gits ; when you drill down into them ,quite often you find they have caring roles that otherwise drop onto a more costly state. Or indeed they do not have work locally , nor can faraway work pay rent etc .
Also it looks like our finances just cant keep covering the payments made ; if that becomes unsustainable dole will be cut.
The Dole drops well below the (MISC.ie) minimum income standard , and I see few nuff making dole a life choice .
I really congratulate those who by working are obviously no better financially than if they were on the dole.
 
Protocol said:
German system of UI

Social insurance = 60% of former net wages for 12 months, 67% if married

After 12 months of unemployment, move to AG II scheme, equivalent to JSA "dole"

Social assistance = 409 pm for a single person

Couples = 368 pm per person

Child 13-18 = 311
Child 6<13 = 291
Child <6 = 237 pm
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Hi Protocol

It's interesting that the dole is €94 for a single person in Germany compared to €193 in Ireland.
For a married couple, it's €170 in Germany compared to €321 in Ireland.

However, there is an additional €30 a week for a dependent child in Ireland, compared to between €55 and €72 in Germany.

I had the impression that the Irish system was more geared towards children.

Brendan
 
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