Does this seem a reasonable fee for Extracting Probate, Tax returns etc?

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Dalaimama

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Myself and my sister are joint executors of my recently deceased aunts will.
She has left everything to me and my 2 sisters, excluding some small monetary gifts to friends and family.
Her estate consists of a house valued around 550k and roughly 100k in bank accounts.
After meeting with her solicitor, he has sent the attached.
Does this seem a reasonable fee outline? I have searched the forum and see that around 1% is the average, while the attached seems roughly 2.5% or maybe I am reading it wrong?
And lastly, is it ok to negotiate the fees?
Thanks so much for any guidance

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I found the image hard to read on my mobile device. (It may be better viewed on a larger device.)

Is your solicitor accredited and competent to complete and advise on inheritance tax returns?
 
If you have time and patience you can do probate and filing CAT returns. There are threads on this on AAM and many posters will help.

The conveyancing on the house seems on the high side.
 
Probate fee is a touch on the low side maybe and 3500 is barely 0.5% of estate value. (Incidentally template for quoting fees is out of date. CA24 is no longer used)

Conveyancing fee ( which is totally separate) is ok, a touch on the high side maybe.

Fee for inheritance tax returns = €500 per return, which is slightly on the low side, but it may be three identical returns.

The solicitor is of course more familiar with what is needed. It may be that the probate is very straightforward and the conveyancing potentially not so much (or maybe it will be sold at public auction).

The €275 'misc charges' item is usually a sign of an old-school solicitor. If so, they may be the type to get offended by an attempt to haggle. But certainly you are free to bargain with them.

Overall there is nothing in those fees that would cause me to say the solicitor is overcharging.
 
I would say it is reasonable enough overall. I'd be tempted to look after the inheritance tax privately. I've never heard a solicitor to charge separately for it tbh. Think of the overall picture, after tax and expenses you're talking about haggling for very little individually.
 
Thank you so much everyone, you have given me great advice. I'll look into the inheritance tax returns.
 
But it's more than €13k!!

I could save € 2,120.00 by doing the inheritance tax returns myself and € 5,514.00 by doing the probate stufff with the assistance of the probate office staff. That's an extra €7,600 for the beneficiaries, a nice little chunk of change.
 
mathepac said:
But it's more than €13k!!

I could save € 2,120.00 by doing the inheritance tax returns myself and € 5,514.00 by doing the probate stufff with the assistance of the probate office staff. That's an extra €7,600 for the beneficiaries, a nice little chunk of change.
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Or a whole 2.5k each gross. I'd rather have a professional do it right meself.
 
On the probate side, you're working with the guidance of the ultimate professionals - probate staff who have probably worked more cases from start to finish than all the solicitors' offices in the country combined.

If you can dismiss "a whole 2.5k each gross" then fair play to you; I'd prefer it in my pocket than in some solicitor's bank account.
 
Sure. If you're happy to do the work involved so as to save the estate money, go for it. It is noble and selfless deed on your part (unless you are also one of the residuary beneficiaries, in which case it's not entirely selfless).

But that would be true regardless of whether the solicitor's fee is "reasonable" or not, which is the question raised by the OP.

To be strictly accurate, you'd need to note that not all of the fees end up "in the solicitor's pocket" — of the €13k-odd total, only €9k represents the solicitor's professional fees — and some of the costs are going to be incurred even if you do the work yourself — e.g. the estimated €900 stamp duty on the probate application, and at least some of the other outlays plus, obviously, the conveyancing costs, where you do have to employ a solicitor. If you value your own time and effort at nil, then you'll do the work yourself no matter how modest the saving is. But if it's a question of balancing your own time, effort and responsiblity against the cost saving that will be acheived, it's important to quantify the cost saving accurately.
 
Nit pick all you like at my figures but please read my post again. I have never suggested DIYing the conveyancing, nor have I suggested savings of €13K.

Doing it my way certainly results in very significant savings and gets more expertise and experience on the probate side than employing the expensive services of a solicitor. There is no evidence that a solicitor brings more expertise to bear on the inheritance tax side than a competent layman could.

Employing an expensive solicitor in no way removes the executors from their responsibilities as executors. If it goes wrong, even with all the solicitors in the country, the executors would still bear the brunt.
 
mathepac said:
Nit pick all you like at my figures but please read my post again. I have never suggested DIYing the conveyancing, nor have I suggested savings of €13K.

Doing it my way certainly results in very significant savings and gets more expertise and experience on the probate side than employing the expensive services of a solicitor. There is no evidence that a solicitor brings more expertise to bear on the inheritance tax side than a competent layman could.

Employing an expensive solicitor in no way removes the executors from their responsibilities as executors. If it goes wrong, even with all the solicitors in the country, the executors would still bear the brunt.
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This has more than a hint of the kind of ‘the public has had enough of experts’ nonsense that has permeated society. ‘DIY probate’ makes sense where people are desitute and every penny counts. But typically it’s the modus operandi of the control freak who thinks that a ‘competent layperson’ knows more than a lawyer/doctor/accountant/tax adviser/architect with decades of experience. I’m sure that I could ‘give it a go’ if needs be, but why bother? Pay a dog to bark rather than barking yourself. In this particular case, for example, two nieces and a nephew are receiving a very significant windfall from their aunt, and we seem to be talking about €1,697 net of tax per person. In this context, that’s nothing, it’s a derisory amount of money, with the phrase ‘penny wise and pound foolish’ coming to mind.
 
The Probate Office staff will be very helpful when it comes to filling out the forms, but they will provide no support at all if someone requires, e.g., advice on their duties as an executor, support in dealing with queries or objections from beneficiaries, assistance in dealing with banks or handling tax liablities or other debts of the estate, etc. No offence to the Probate Office staff but they will not, and do not pretend to, provide general advice and assistance in the administration of estates.

Which, to be clear, is fine. I'm very far from saying that everyone who acts as an executor needs, or should have, the services of a solicitor. But it would be a great mistake to imagine that the Probate Office staff are a substitute; what you get from them is quite different (and much more limited) than what you get from a solicitor. The "competent layperson" who fails to grasp this is less competent than he may think.

One possibility that is open is for the executor to obtain the grant without professional assistance, but to retain a solicitor to advice/assist as required on the administration of the estate; on questions, issues and queries that may arise in connection with the administration; and on tax liablities and obligations.

The point that . . .

"If it goes wrong, even with all the solicitors in the country, the executors would still bear the brunt."

. . . is in fact a powerful argument in favour of obtaining professional advice. It's precisely because the responsibilities of an executor are very great, and the liablities are personal, that an executor might like professional support in the execution of their duties.
 
elcato said:
Or a whole 2.5k each gross. I'd rather have a professional do it right meself.
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I'm the same. Estate of €650,000 and I'm trying to save €2k by doing a portion of the estate myself? I wouldn't be bothered. I'd either find a solicitor who would do the whole lot for €2k cheaper or just let them get on with it. It would be something I wouldn't have to spend any time or effort on.
 
It depends on time, opportunity cost, and natural interests.

If I didn’t have a full-time job I would do probate myself.

Even with a full-time job I would do the CGT part myself too as it’s straightforward and you don’t need legal expertise.

My experience of these one-man-band solicitors is not great. You have to spend a lot of time reminding them to follow up and assemble a lot of documents yourself for them anyway .



Dalaimama said:
I have searched the forum and see that around 1% is the average,
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The solicitor’s effort varies by the complexity of the estate, not its value. An estate with a single house worth €200k is the same effort as one with a single house worth €2m.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
The solicitor’s effort varies by the complexity of the estate, not its value. An estate with a single house worth €200k is the same effort as one with a single house worth €2m.
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Not really true. At least not all the time. The value itself can add complexity. To give some small examples:

You have to get CGT cert before selling €2m house.

LPT clearance is nearly guaranteed to give trouble.

In terms of ordinary business risk assessment, you are far more likely to spend money on architect/engineers up to date planning and building reg compliance docs for a €2m sale because you are fishing in a smaller pool of buyers and you want nothing to spook them. The €200k house you might be more inclined to say "here's what we have. It will have to do you".

If a €2m house is literally the only asset, you may have complications beyond the normal if deceased was on Fair Deal.

It is fair to say that the €2m estate is very unlikely to be ten times the work of the €200k estate alright. And if it is simply being vested in a sole beneficiary then yes, possibly very little difference in the workload.

Nevertheless, on average a €2m single-asset estate will require more work than a €200k single-asset estate.
 
Dalaimama said:
Her estate consists of a house valued around 550k and roughly 100k in bank accounts.
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mathepac said:
I could save € 2,120.00 by doing the inheritance tax returns myself and € 5,514.00 by doing the probate stufff with the assistance of the probate office staff. That's an extra €7,600 for the beneficiaries, a nice little chunk of change.
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Gordon Gekko said:
‘DIY probate’ makes sense where people are desitute and every penny counts. But typically it’s the modus operandi of the control freak who thinks that a ‘competent layperson’ knows more than a lawyer/doctor/accountant/tax adviser/architect with decades of experience.
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Extracting probate is usually a simple enough business and I see no reason for paying a solicitor to do it. There is no legal issue involved.

It looks as if the tax return is also simple enough and no need to pay for that either.

If you have a complex problem which requires expertise e.g. tax planning, then you should pay a competent tax professional.

And it does not matter that the estate is worth €650k. Spending money unnecessarily is never a good idea no matter how wealthy one is.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Extracting probate is usually a simple enough business and I see no reason for paying a solicitor to do it. There is no legal issue involved.

It looks as if the tax return is also simple enough and no need to pay for that either.
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Everything is simple until something goes wrong or someone gets impatient.
 
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