Docking wages for human error

S

Sambuca

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Does anyone know if an employer can dock wages due to a mistake my the employee.

A member of staff mis qouted a benefit on a policy where there was a claim. The client wanted payment from the company due to being told by a member of staff. Now the company wants to dock the employee the value of the claim. Is this legal?

The employee was gien 3 choices : Pay it and stay, Dont pay it and walk or the company pays it and walk
 
Sambuca said:
Does anyone know if an employer can dock wages due to a mistake my the employee.

A member of staff mis qouted a benefit on a policy where there was a claim. The client wanted payment from the company due to being told by a member of staff. Now the company wants to dock the employee the value of the claim. Is this legal?

The employee was gien 3 choices : Pay it and stay, Dont pay it and walk or the company pays it and walk
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They cannot make the employee pay for it, that is illegal.
 
Thats what I thought but they took the value of the claim from the employees wages and have said if any more mistakes are made that employees have to take the hit!
 
Page 17 Booklet of Payment of Wage Act
4. Deductions from Wages and Payments to Employer

There is a provision to deduct wages for such acts. As long as you follow the correct procedure and the employee is notified in their original contract that the deductions for errors/damage etc is a possible outcome, it is not illegal.

It makes me so mad that someone could tell you its illegal. I am so tired of people expecting to be 'nannied' in the work place. Your pay is for the work you do and taking responsibilty for same. Just as I have to take responsibility to manage a safe and comfortable workplace, have my cabinets full of 'cover your end' documents for all staff members less I should be should sued for negligence, and then for a staff member to make a mistake and 'not be accountable'.........maddening!!
 
Claire1956 said:
Page 17 Booklet of Payment of Wage Act
4. Deductions from Wages and Payments to Employer

There is a provision to deduct wages for such acts. As long as you follow the correct procedure and the employee is notified in their original contract that the deductions for errors/damage etc is a possible outcome, it is not illegal.

It makes me so mad that someone could tell you its illegal. I am so tired of people expecting to be 'nannied' in the work place. Your pay is for the work you do and taking responsibilty for same. Just as I have to take responsibility to manage a safe and comfortable workplace, have my cabinets full of 'cover your end' documents for all staff members less I should be should sued for negligence, and then for a staff member to make a mistake and 'not be accountable'.........maddening!!
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In the unlikely event that the employment contract makes employees liable for the cost of their errors while at work such a clause must be shown to the employee before deductions are made. In any sector where the value of the work being carried out is far greater than the wage being paid such clauses are, from what I know, unheard of. For example if an employee in Intel smashed a cart filled with finished wafers it would plunge about 10 generations of their family into indentured slavery.

If the employees actions can be shown to have been malicious or criminal then that’s a different story; the employer can take them to court, but they still can’t deduct the cost from their wages.
 
We have it in our employment contracts. And it is in black and white that an employee can have deductions made for any act or omission as long as the conditions in the Act are met. Your example is in the extreme. I would regularly see errors costing of €40- €50 to the company born by carelessness or indifference. These are the most common. The poster did not give the details, but they are unlikely to be in the extreme that you offer as an example.
 
Purple said:
For example if an employee in Intel smashed a cart filled with finished wafers it would plunge about 10 generations of their family into indentured slavery.

If the employees actions can be shown to have been malicious or criminal then that’s a different story; the employer can take them to court, but they still can’t deduct the cost from their wages.
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In my very early years as an elecrical apprentice in Fab 10 in Intel i cut a 32 core cable linked to the chemical washers for these wafers.. God, the damage i caused that day... Just as well i wasnt docked otherwise i'd still be paying nearly 20 years later!!
 
Sambucha, does the employment contract say anything about the right of employer to deduct wages for errors?
 
I would doubt if the company in question has any such clause regarding deductions from wages. A company that gives the 3 options they gave indicates to me that they don’t as if they did they should have referred him to his contact. So in my view this is an illegal deduction.
 
I would agree with you Becky - the tone doesn't bode well. But if managed correctly it is not illegal. Employers do have some rights when they follow processes.
 
There are only two options, pay and stay, or don't pay and walk.. the third option is irrelevant.

The company should say tough to the client... although they were given incorrect info it had no effect, the correct info was that a benefit was not covered, but it seems the damage was already caused.. it doesn't sound like the client made a decision to purchase a policy based on the false info, it seems like they already had a policy and only rang up to see if a particular claim would be covered, after the problem to be claimed for had occurred...

It would be different if the client had made a decision to purchase based on incorrect info, but even then the client would be advised to read the policy.


If an employee makes a mistake it can be argued that this is because they haven't received adequate training, and is thus the employers fault.. Of course someone can always drop a bottle of vodka in a pub, not much that training can do about that.. but even in that case training on how to handle fragile items could have been given..
 
From reading the posts on this thread I now understand why retail businesses have such a mark-up, to cover the careless mistakes of staff as they obviously are not trained sufficiently to simply take care of other peoples property/business........well at least all of us are paying for their mistakes! A really good approach instead of of insisting people take care.
 
Claire1956 said:
From reading the posts on this thread I now understand why retail businesses have such a mark-up, to cover the careless mistakes of staff as they obviously are not trained sufficiently to simply take care of other peoples property/business........well at least all of us are paying for their mistakes! A really good approach instead of of insisting people take care.
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That's a strange conclusion to jump to from this thread, Claire - given that the OP wasn't referring to a retail business.
 
The OP's query is valid, and my first reply to was to correct an inaccurate response. However the thread moved on and it is not that query I am replying to now, it is the overall 'tone' of peoples attitudes to mistakes being made and stating that the employer can't hold staff accountable, i.e. it's illegal to have staff pay for their mistakes was a clear communication in the thread.

The conclusion I am drawing is that no-one feels ownership for their actions, it's always the fault of someone else. I am aware that other business owners may be reading the thread, some of them new to business. They may now believe that they cannot hold their staff to account, which I would also believe if I didn't know better based on the replies in the thread. But the truth is that the cost of mistakes an employee makes can be deducted.

When I shared that info on the thread one of the replies was 'oh I cost Intel X amount, good job I didn't have to pay' - but don't the readers realise that they do pay somewhere along the line...............we all pay.

I took the retail example as much of todays media is criticising retailers for the mark-up. But looking at the overall 'it's not me' attitude the mark-up must be partially to cover costs such as those examples mentioned in this thread..do you see the full circle I am talking about??

Bottom line not one of the posters agreed that the cost of an employees mistake can be deducted! However, it can!
 
Well, if employers always charged employees for mistakes then some industries may find it hard to get staff, like Intel... or else employees may need insurance.

An employer could consider firing a staff member for incompetence.
 
Claire1956 said:
Bottom line not one of the posters agreed that the cost of an employees mistake can be deducted! However, it can!
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The Payment of Wages act clearly sets out the circumstances in which such deductions can be made. They can only be made if the employee agrees or his contract allows it. Such deductions must be fair and reasonable having regards to all the circumstances, including the employees salary and must be made within 6 months of the original issue occuring

In the case of the OP, if the person's contract does not allow for such deductions to be made or if they do not agree to it and are dismissed, the likelihood is that they would have a strong case for unfair dismissal, which would more then likely cost the employer more then the original issues

Note the reference that deductions must be fair and reasonable. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that their staff are adequetly trained, have the necessary equipment and sufficent numbers to minimise the risk of errors. Employees should not be punished if there employer/manager is incompetent or cuts costs and resources so much that mistakes are inevitable
 
Mpsox said:
The Payment of Wages act clearly sets out the circumstances in which such deductions can be made. They can only be made if the employee agrees or his contract allows it. Such deductions must be fair and reasonable having regards to all the circumstances, including the employees salary and must be made within 6 months of the original issue occuring

In the case of the OP, if the person's contract does not allow for such deductions to be made or if they do not agree to it and are dismissed, the likelihood is that they would have a strong case for unfair dismissal, which would more then likely cost the employer more then the original issues

Note the reference that deductions must be fair and reasonable. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that their staff are adequetly trained, have the necessary equipment and sufficent numbers to minimise the risk of errors. Employees should not be punished if there employer/manager is incompetent or cuts costs and resources so much that mistakes are inevitable
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+1
I find myself agreeing with Complainer on this thread (for the second time in weeks!). We would never deduct the cost of errors from employees wages. Not only is it a can of worms since they can claim lack of training etc but it creates a very bad working environment and a "them and us" attitude which is like a cancer in any business. I do think that employees should be made fully aware of the consequences of their mistakes and if possible share the pain when facing the customer (if that’s appropriate).

The notion that high costs in retail, or any sector of the Irish economy, is in any substantial way down to the cost of employee mistakes is utter nonsense.

If your employee is no good then fire them. If you can’t figure out if they are good or bad within 12 months then you’re no good at hiring people and you’ve probably no business being an employer.
 
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