Developers showing signs of panic ?

[ubiquitous]

This might have been the case had this company not been successfully censured for health & safety breaches - in fact they have been, and they have been prosecuted and convicted. My point is that that the public odium that attached to these crimes is a lot less than that suffered by the Baileys whose crimes and indiscretions imho pale into comparison with those of this particular company.

 

[Purple]

Ever thought that maybe the evasion of taxes by Bovale etc. could have led to funding shortfalls / cutbacks in building inspection services, which could have led to cutting corners knowing the chances of censure were low, which could have led to the tragic death of that worker?

I think that's stretching things by any standard. Not even Pat Rabbitte would have come out with that. The Bailey's are no worse or better than any other tax evader that steals from the people of Ireland, be they a builder, a plumber, a solicitor or a doctor. If any poster here has ever done a nixer and trousered the cash they are guilty of the same crime, so it's just a case of being pi**ed-off because the Bailey brother are smarter than them.

The reason that people die on trolleys in A&E is because of under-funding but it is also because the service is badly run and the Triage nurse can't tell people to shag off home and go to their GP the next day. 22 million on top of the other 10 billion won't change that.

 

[ludermor]

Ever thought that maybe the evasion of taxes by Bovale etc. could have led to funding shortfalls / cutbacks in building inspection services, which could have led to cutting corners knowing the chances of censure were low, which could have led to the tragic death of that worker?

Absolutly not. I work in construction and the progress in safety over the past 6/7 has been incredible (but still a long way to go) The lack of inspection was nothing to do with finance or resourses it was the whole attitude of the time.
Im not sure which developer ubiquitousis talking about but anyway.... 9-10 years ago my cousin dies on a building site (charlotte quay) and it was pure health and safety neglience. Someone had died the year beforehand on another site by this developer and the next year another person died. All of his sites were closed for a few weeks and a severe H&S audit carried out. The developer offered my cousins fiance 10k pounds for her troubles. That was the price he put on a life. It would have bought a lot of barriers for his sites. So how someone can compare (and state it is worse!) tax evasion to loss of human life kinda puzzles.

 

[Sherman]

I think that's stretching things by any standard. Not even Pat Rabbitte would have come out with that. The Bailey's are no worse or better than any other tax evader that steals from the people of Ireland, be they a builder, a plumber, a solicitor or a doctor. If any poster here has ever done a nixer and trousered the cash they are guilty of the same crime, so it's just a case of being pi**ed-off because the Bailey brother are smarter than them.

The reason that people die on trolleys in A&E is because of under-funding but it is also because the service is badly run and the Triage nurse can't tell people to shag off home and go to their GP the next day. 22 million on top of the other 10 billion won't change that.

You know well I was not just talking about the Baileys - they were merely the example used by Ubiquitous to make his point regarding differing levels of moral bankruptcy. You can see equally well I said it was potentially a contributory factor, not the sole cause.

The culture under which people like the Baileys flourished, and under which certain political figures still seem to operate, contributed to massive shortfalls in public expenditure. The fact that they lived like kings, as did certain beloved political figures, lent the evasion of taxes (aka fraud on all of us) an air of respectability - as you point out, there is enormous undisclosed black market activity in this country, the Baileys being just one of the more glaring examples due to the size of their evasion over the years.

Your reference to the Bailey brothers being smarter than small-time tax evaders is facetious - they defrauded the state on a huge scale, pure and simple. Are small-time drug lords jealous because John Gilligan is smarter than them?

 

[room305]

Absolutly not. I work in construction and the progress in safety over the past 6/7 has been incredible (but still a long way to go) The lack of inspection was nothing to do with finance or resourses it was the whole attitude of the time.
Im not sure which developer ubiquitousis talking about but anyway.... 9-10 years ago my cousin dies on a building site (charlotte quay) and it was pure health and safety neglience. Someone had died the year beforehand on another site by this developer and the next year another person died. All of his sites were closed for a few weeks and a severe H&S audit carried out. The developer offered my cousins fiance 10k pounds for her troubles. That was the price he put on a life. It would have bought a lot of barriers for his sites. So how someone can compare (and state it is worse!) tax evasion to loss of human life kinda puzzles.

That is a very sad tale but very well said.

 

[Sherman]

Absolutly not. I work in construction and the progress in safety over the past 6/7 has been incredible (but still a long way to go) The lack of inspection was nothing to do with finance or resourses it was the whole attitude of the time.
Im not sure which developer ubiquitousis talking about but anyway.... 9-10 years ago my cousin dies on a building site (charlotte quay) and it was pure health and safety neglience. Someone had died the year beforehand on another site by this developer and the next year another person died. All of his sites were closed for a few weeks and a severe H&S audit carried out. The developer offered my cousins fiance 10k pounds for her troubles. That was the price he put on a life. It would have bought a lot of barriers for his sites. So how someone can compare (and state it is worse!) tax evasion to loss of human life kinda puzzles.

Your example is exactly what I was getting at. Gross tax evasion is stealing from the state. I still say the lack of finances could have contributed to a lack of enforcement of building regulations. Why as you say yourself has compliance increased massively in the last 6-7 years? Could it have coincided with massive increases in available funding I wonder?

I don't see where anyone on this thread was comparing or stating that tax evasion is worse than causing someone's death

 

[room305]

You know well I was not just talking about the Baileys - they were merely the example used by Ubiquitous to make his point regarding differing levels of moral bankruptcy. You can see equally well I said it was potentially a contributory factor, not the sole cause.

The HSE could happily burn €22 million with a mistaken coffee cup order. It is their profligacy with taxpayers cash that is the biggest contributory factor to hospital waiting lists - not tax evasion. Don't forget the settlement included penalties and interest, so the contribution would have been less if it was paid when due.

The culture under which people like the Baileys flourished, and under which certain political figures still seem to operate, contributed to massive shortfalls in public expenditure. The fact that they lived like kings, as did certain beloved political figures, lent the evasion of taxes (aka fraud on all of us) an air of respectability - as you point out, there is enormous undisclosed black market activity in this country, the Baileys being just one of the more glaring examples due to the size of their evasion over the years.

This is high moral ground grandstanding of a preposterous level. So every plumber and hairdresser doing Saturday nixers for beer money takes their cue from the activities of the Bailey brothers? The Bailey brothers lived like kings because they ran a very successful and profitable business. If it wasn't profitable there wouldn't have been any tax liability to evade.

The culture of tax evasion that arose in the eighties was a response to the punative taxes being charged. As the tax rate dropped so did the number of people evading.

Your reference to the Bailey brothers being smarter than small-time tax evaders is facetious - they defrauded the state on a huge scale, pure and simple. Are small-time drug lords jealous because John Gilligan is smarter than them?

The answer to your question is yes, yes they are.

 

[Sherman]

The HSE could happily burn €22 million with a mistaken coffee cup order. It is their profligacy with taxpayers cash that is the biggest contributory factor to hospital waiting lists - not tax evasion. Don't forget the settlement included penalties and interest, so the contribution would have been less if it was paid when due.

This is high moral ground grandstanding of a preposterous level. So every plumber and hairdresser doing Saturday nixers for beer money takes their cue from the activities of the Bailey brothers? The Bailey brothers lived like kings because they ran a very successful and profitable business. If it wasn't profitable their wouldn't have been any tax liability to evade.

Or perhaps it was the evasion that enabled them to be so profitable in the first place?

The culture of tax evasion that arose in the eighties was a response to the punative taxes being charged. As the tax rate dropped so did the number of people evading.

Sorry, I just don't buy this 'it's not their fault' argument. This is moral buck-passing.

BTW, I mentioned nothing about hospitals or waiting lists - I mentioned only building inspections. Health provision in this country is another discussion entirely.

 

[Green]

The culture under which people like the Baileys flourished, and under which certain political figures still seem to operate, contributed to massive shortfalls in public expenditure. The fact that they lived like kings, as did certain beloved political figures, lent the evasion of taxes.............. an air of respectability

This is exactly my point, by FF allowing these guys (and perhaps other devlopment companies as mentioned by other posters) into the tent, they are saying you have done nothing wrong and we as the main party in Government we are happy to be seen with you. They are saying in effect Your standards are our standards. They should have the courage not to let them in and publicy say so!

 

[ubiquitous]

...the Baileys - they were merely the example used by Ubiquitous to make his point regarding differing levels of moral bankruptcy.

This isn't correct. It was YOBR who cited the Baileys/Bovale as "the most glaring example of a lack of any type of ethics or morale standard". I simply questioned why he (and others) chose to pick on the Baileys while other very well known developers had escaped the sort of negative publicity and mockery that the Baileys have suffered, despite the fact that these other developers have been found by the courts as being responsible for the deaths of their workers.

 

[ubiquitous]

This is exactly my point, by FF allowing these guys (and perhaps other devlopment companies as mentioned by other posters) into the tent, they are saying you have done nothing wrong and we as the main party in Government we are happy to be seen with you. They are saying in effect Your standards are our standards. They should have the courage not to let them in and publicy say so!

So the former govt ministers who successively stood over the blood infection scandals (and the subsequent cover-ups and hounding of victims) can tell a couple of jumped-up hucksters "sorry, our standards are too high for you"?

ps Why do you use the word "perhaps"? It seems to me that you still rank tax evasion as a bigger crime than supervising the deaths of one's own workers.

 

[ubiquitous]

ubiquitous has it ever occurred to you that a poster here might know more about one issue that another? and that is the reason that they mention one issue and not another. Maybe you should think about that?

But we all know more about the Baileys than the other company that I don't want to mention. This is because the media have made a point of attacking the Baileys at every possibility in the past 4-5 years. In comparison we have barely heard a dickybird about the other company's crimes, whose managing director enjoys a very high (and largely positive) media profile - so much so that if I mention his name here, this site might well get a libel writ.

Why is this? Why have this guy's crimes been airbrushed out of public attention while the Baileys are attacked at every opportunity?

Is it to do with the fact that on one hand you have a very suave, PR- & media-friendly tycoon (albeit with a few skeletons in his cupboard) and on the other hand you have 2 guys who still look and sound like the small farmers they were before they hit rich?

Maybe you should think about that?

 

[Purple]

You know well I was not just talking about the Baileys - they were merely the example used by Ubiquitous to make his point regarding differing levels of moral bankruptcy. You can see equally well I said it was potentially a contributory factor, not the sole cause.

My point is that it’s not a sliding scale of moral bankruptcy; it’s the same crime no matter what the scale. It’s just that some people are better at it than others. I make no distinction between the Baileys and a teacher doing a grind and pocketing the cash.

The culture under which people like the Baileys flourished, and under which certain political figures still seem to operate, contributed to massive shortfalls in public expenditure. The fact that they lived like kings, as did certain beloved political figures, lent the evasion of taxes (aka fraud on all of us) an air of respectability - as you point out, there is enormous undisclosed black market activity in this country, the Baileys being just one of the more glaring examples due to the size of their evasion over the years.

It has also been argued that the black economy, and indeed bogus non-residential accounts, is the only thing that kept any money in the country in the 1980’s. That does not make their actions right but you are seeing links where there are none.
Again, I think you are stretching things to suggest that high profile tax evaders were the role models for the “man in the street” evaders. If for no other reason than their crimes have only come to light in the last few years.

Your reference to the Bailey brothers being smarter than small-time tax evaders is facetious - they defrauded the state on a huge scale, pure and simple.

I agree that they “defrauded the state on a huge scale, pure and simple”, why does this negate the reality that they were good at it?

Are small-time drug lords jealous because John Gilligan is smarter than them?

Room305 answered that one. Do you think it’s OK for small time drug dealers to pontificate about John Gilligan’s crimes just because he’s a better drug dealer than they are?

 

[Green]

Is it to do with the fact that on one hand you have a very suave, PR- & media-friendly tycoon (albeit with a few skeletons in his cupboard) and on the other hand you have 2 guys who still look and sound like the small farmers they were before they hit riches?

Not a plausible explantion as he is not media friendly and never gives interviews. He also keeps a very low profile..

 

[ubiquitous]

Not a plausible explantion as he is not media friendly and never gives interviews. He also keeps a very low profile.. .

Did it ever occur to you that there his policy not to give interviews might just be a part of a clever media strategy? If I had been responsible for my own workers' deaths, I wouldn't give interviews either. All things considered, the guy gets a very good press and is on the business pages literally every other week. If that isn't a high profile, I don't know what is...

ps How much of the Irish Times article was taken up by the story of the site deaths? How much of a similar article about the Baileys be taken up with the tax evasion story? I rest my case.

 

[Green]

Did it ever occur to you that there his policy not to give interviews might just be a part of a clever media strategy? If I had been responsible for my own workers' deaths, I wouldn't give interviews either.

Your contradicting your own point! How can not giving interviews be part of a clever media strategy?

 

[ubiquitous]

How can not giving interviews be part of a clever media strategy?

If you don't understand this, then you don't know a whole lot about PR & media management.

 

[Purple]

Ubiquitous has pointed out the posting guidelines and asked people to follow them. This is perfectly reasonable and by not doing so you are potentially leaving Brendan open to being sued for liable. This is grossly unfair.

 

[Green]

Ubiquitous has pointed out the posting guidelines and asked people to follow them. This is perfectly reasonable and by not doing so you are potentially leaving Brendan open to being sued for liable. This is grossly unfair.

I am aware of the posting guidelines and have followed them at all times in this thread. I reject your allegation that I am exposing anyone to any legal action. Also, Purple I don't believe you have moderator status on this forum?

Ubiquitous has roundly attacked other posters in this thread for not mentioning other companies yet he won't mention them himself.

 

[Afuera]

This might have been the case had this company not been successfully censured for health & safety breaches - in fact they have been, and they have been prosecuted and convicted.

If they have been convicted of the crime then how could it open you up to libel to name them?