Designing a Company Logo

[JoeB]

Well, tailors also provide a service.. but if I asked a tailor how much he'd charge for taking up my pants, and he said 150 Euro.. I'd ask him how long he estimates it to take... and work out an hourly rate from there.. (I'd expect a tailor to take up pants for 20 Euro maximum, perhaps 30 Euro if very difficult, but as low as 5 to 10 if it's a school child's uniform)

I feel college design students would be expected to produce logo's, in exams, in 45 minutes or less.. so why does a professional need to charge 400, or 80,000?

I'd expect a designer to have template files, which would handle technical aspects like resolution, size, transparency, scalability etc etc.. or else he should be proficient enough to handle those aspects quickly, as in a few hours maximum.. after that he simply has to draw the logo... (and also a few hours I suppose to liase with the client, and additonal money to run the business etc, and other overheads.. but even still I don't see how 400 wouldn't be enough.)

As I say, maybe I don't fully appreciate the complexities of it all...

 

[UFC]

I outsource all my design work. I've had beautiful work done for $50.

The only difference between Ireland and Moldova are the wages. No point using an expensive Irish designer IMO...

I have about 6 years experience doing this and have never had a single problem.

 

[sinbadsailor]

I read it earlier. I kinda meant its the same attitude as a pushy sales man, not that it was a sales pitch specifically. I had a similar experience looking for some work done in the garden last year. Found it very hard to get anyone to work to a fixed budget. Thank you Celtic Tiger.

Some people aren't willing to compromise, especially in the creative industries. Sometimes it not profitable to do so. Which is fair enough.

I think it kinda comes down to the old adage about honest days work and honest days pay. You workin the guidelines of your industry, which will have a upper and lower price limit. How you justify your place in that range depends on your work.

For anyone looking to get any kind of design work done, I would advise this.

Tell a designer what you would like as you see it in your head. Ask them for a portfolio of what they have done before. Take their quote and compare it to the portfolio. If you think that the two match, then you will get what 'you' think is value for money and the designer will get what 'they' think they are worth. Win win.

 

[Caveat]

It seems that the designers view themselves as providing a service as opposed to selling a commodity.

You can't realistically go into an accountant and say I need my accounts done and I have €1,000 to pay you in fees. I mean you can but it's unlikely.

On the other hand you can go into Louis Copeland and say I have €500 to spend on a suit, what can that get me.

I agree with this.

In answer to other responses - sure, you can get a logo for a few quid and sometimes that's all it takes. But maybe Eircom's 'squiggle' aside (or maybe not) surely not all companies throw away 1000s of euro for no good reason?

There are differences in image/perception/artistry etc - whatever. Sometimes a company just 'needs a logo' and if they are a small local company that doesn't need a global presence, that isn't trying to say something with their design, just have one, then yes, a few euro and 1 hour's work could well get them something they can use. It doesn't mean that designing a logo for a company who is looking for the aforementioned qualities is the same thing though.

 

[paddi22]

I have worked on logos that ranged from 200 quid through to 15,000 and I'l explain the difference in price here for three typical examples

Client A: Joe the plumber, needs a logo for his van and some flyers.
I'd estimate it would take about an 2 hours to design up the logo, check it with him for changes, and put it into the format he needs to go on his van etc. In this case he'd get one or two logo options to choose from and thats it.If he rang me to ask for a quote, I'd suss out what he wants and give him a set price. A small trader who has complete control over their own company can usually make a quick decision and is easier and quicker to deal with.

Client B: New small company selling clothes online - want a logo for website, posters etc
Haven't got a massive budget and not sure exactly what they want.
In this case the price can be a bit difficult to distinguish.
it depends on

• Is there a clear idea for the logo or is it something compicated they want to get across? If they want a logo of a cup with a smiley face, thats fine. But if they want to combine two ideas then it can take a while to think of a clever idea (but these kinds of logos are usually the cleverest and most memorable)

• Has the client researched competitors or do i have to do that?
This is important to make sure the logo isn't too similar to competitors and also to see what kind of impression the logo will give compared to others in the market.

• Is it one person making the decision or does it go through a large group? (more people means more revisions to the design and more delays)
If i know the main person is decisive and direct to deal with then i'l cut money off the quote. If someone won't make decisions or insists on

• Do they understand exactly what they want for the logo? - if they don't communicate clearly then the process takes longer and costs more.

Client C: Multinational bank
A logo for these can go from 15,000 upwards and there is good reason for this.
• Endless meetings and discussions about what the logo should represent, the impression it needs to give people etc
• Massive amount of research needed to make sure logo doesn't infringe on any copyrights accidently
• Needs to be approved by several groups of people so much more time consuming
• Logos isn't just used for flyers. So design needs to work across tv ads, websites, mobile phones, everything!
• A style guide needs to be done up that can be sent to every employees who will be using the logo. This needs to be comprehensive so that the logo and branding look the same across the country and world.

You look at something like the O2 logo and there is a huge amount of thought behind it. its not as simple as saying its just an 'o' and a '2' together. In their ads even if you took out the logo they would still be recognizable with the bubbles and the blue gradient - thats a strong brand.

Even for a small company I would still vary the price on personal factors such as:

- If we are doing a lot of work for a person we would lower the price as part of a package deal.

- if someone knows exactly what they want and looks like they will be straightforward to deal with we price lower.

- I've priced lower because i have liked clients when i met them and wanted to work with them. If I liked their company idea I'd price lower to get the job and hopefully all the promo work that would follow.

- we've priced lower because it was a prestigious job and wanted to get it as it would be great for our company portfolio.

- we've done logos free for charity

- I priced higher because a client a client doesn't know what they want and what their brief is, and as a result I can imagine spending hours trying to guess roughly what they want. The warning sign is if someone says 'i'l know it when I see it!'

The best thing to do is ask for a price off the designer and get them to break it down if you have a query. A client came back to me about a price being too high and I explained that included 3 design options, when they then said they would accept just one the price was lowered. Any good designer will happily break down their prices.

 

[paddi22]

At the end of the day, it depends on what kind of quality you want to go for for your logo.

As a designer i have no problem with small companies going to polish or indian cheap websites if thats all they need and they don't have the budget.

But you are guaranteed to get what you pay for, and as the logo is sometimes the first and only thing potential customers see, then if it looks shoddy then it makes your company look shoddy.

400 euro isn't a lot for a logo that you will have for life. if someone asked me to break down that price I'd happily explain the items involved namely


• 4 years spent at college
• 13 years experience in the industry
• cost of constantly updating software
• cost of updating machines
• higher rates, and utility costs here, that mean i have to charge more than foreign workers
• higher tax paid here

It's horses for courses really. It's like going into a posh restaurant and saying 'this food is overprices, supermac do it for a fiver'.

I know it's difficult when trying to find new designers or web designers, but it's like anything else - do your research on their experience and portfolio and know what you're paying (or not going to pay) for

 

[AlbacoreA]

The worst is when someone doesn't know when they want. They think you'll spend days coming up with designs till they like one. I mean would you ask a house painter to keep painting your house till you like the colour?

Of course get it wrong ang you might to change all your stationary,and other branded materials. Even vehicles.

Charging more filters out the timewasters. People make up their mind up quicker the more expensive it gets.

 

[UFC]

At the end of the day, it depends on what kind of quality you want to go for for your logo.

As a designer i have no problem with small companies going to polish or indian cheap websites if thats all they need and they don't have the budget.

But you are guaranteed to get what you pay for, and as the logo is sometimes the first and only thing potential customers see, then if it looks shoddy then it makes your company look shoddy.

Ah give it a break.

The reason logos created in India or Poland are cheaper is because wages are much cheaper in those countries. Level of skill doesn't come into it at all.

If we believed your logic then we'd have to believe graphic designers in Switzerland are better than Irish graphic designers because they are better paid.

Your opinion on this topic should be taken with a pinch of salt since you have a vested interest in this topic (you are an Irish graphic designer).

 

[sinbadsailor]

I have worked on logos that ranged from 200 quid through to 15,000 and I'l explain the difference in price here for three typical examples

Client A: Joe the plumber, needs a logo for his van and some flyers.
I'd estimate it would take about an 2 hours to design up the logo, check it with him for changes, and put it into the format he needs to go on his van etc. In this case he'd get one or two logo options to choose from and thats it.If he rang me to ask for a quote, I'd suss out what he wants and give him a set price. A small trader who has complete control over their own company can usually make a quick decision and is easier and quicker to deal with.

Client B: New small company selling clothes online - want a logo for website, posters etc
Haven't got a massive budget and not sure exactly what they want.
In this case the price can be a bit difficult to distinguish.
it depends on

• Is there a clear idea for the logo or is it something compicated they want to get across? If they want a logo of a cup with a smiley face, thats fine. But if they want to combine two ideas then it can take a while to think of a clever idea (but these kinds of logos are usually the cleverest and most memorable)

• Has the client researched competitors or do i have to do that?
This is important to make sure the logo isn't too similar to competitors and also to see what kind of impression the logo will give compared to others in the market.

• Is it one person making the decision or does it go through a large group? (more people means more revisions to the design and more delays)
If i know the main person is decisive and direct to deal with then i'l cut money off the quote. If someone won't make decisions or insists on

• Do they understand exactly what they want for the logo? - if they don't communicate clearly then the process takes longer and costs more.

Client C: Multinational bank
A logo for these can go from 15,000 upwards and there is good reason for this.
• Endless meetings and discussions about what the logo should represent, the impression it needs to give people etc
• Massive amount of research needed to make sure logo doesn't infringe on any copyrights accidently
• Needs to be approved by several groups of people so much more time consuming
• Logos isn't just used for flyers. So design needs to work across tv ads, websites, mobile phones, everything!
• A style guide needs to be done up that can be sent to every employees who will be using the logo. This needs to be comprehensive so that the logo and branding look the same across the country and world.

You look at something like the O2 logo and there is a huge amount of thought behind it. its not as simple as saying its just an 'o' and a '2' together. In their ads even if you took out the logo they would still be recognizable with the bubbles and the blue gradient - thats a strong brand.

Even for a small company I would still vary the price on personal factors such as:

- If we are doing a lot of work for a person we would lower the price as part of a package deal.

- if someone knows exactly what they want and looks like they will be straightforward to deal with we price lower.

- I've priced lower because i have liked clients when i met them and wanted to work with them. If I liked their company idea I'd price lower to get the job and hopefully all the promo work that would follow.

- we've priced lower because it was a prestigious job and wanted to get it as it would be great for our company portfolio.

- we've done logos free for charity

- I priced higher because a client a client doesn't know what they want and what their brief is, and as a result I can imagine spending hours trying to guess roughly what they want. The warning sign is if someone says 'i'l know it when I see it!'

The best thing to do is ask for a price off the designer and get them to break it down if you have a query. A client came back to me about a price being too high and I explained that included 3 design options, when they then said they would accept just one the price was lowered. Any good designer will happily break down their prices.

Funny how the cost is proportional to the size of the company, and their ability to pay it.

I've never heard of a case where a massive company just said "wow, thats it, just what we want....3 days later it's there on disk....how much €750 please"

But I do agree the cost is usually created by the client themselves as they do business according to their internal processes, so the likes of a bank will have stakeholders and group meetings so everyone can get their tuppance in and still come to the same simple conclusion. They create the environment and timeframe to complete the project and the designer goes with that

 

[paddi22]

Ah give it a break.

The reason logos created in India or Poland are cheaper is because wages are much cheaper in those countries. Level of skill doesn't come into it at all.

If we believed your logic then we'd have to believe graphic designers in Switzerland are better than Irish graphic designers because they are better paid.

Your opinion on this topic should be taken with a pinch of salt since you have a vested interest in this topic (you are an Irish graphic designer).

When I said 'you get what you pay for' i wasn't only talking about the skill levels (which vary wildly)
I meant for your money you get a designer who:
• mightn't understand what you need because of language issues
• you get limited communication and no face to face talking or discussion
• you get a designer who doesn't understand the irish market or the environment you product will exist in
• you get a designer who doesn't have any idea who your competitors are, or what your place in the market is
• you get a designer who has completely different cultural ideas about colour and symbols (for example, red is a lucky colour in china, over here people associate it with danger)
• you don't see the logo in process so you could easily get a ripped off logo and suffer copyright issues down the line. (this happened to a client who came to us when his 'logo' turned out to be taken from a stock art site and he started getting lawyers letters)

 

[UFC]

When I said 'you get what you pay for' i wasn't only talking about the skill levels (which vary wildly)
I meant for your money you get a designer who:
• mightn't understand what you need because of language issues
• you get limited communication and no face to face talking or discussion
• you get a designer who doesn't understand the irish market or the environment you product will exist in
• you get a designer who doesn't have any idea who your competitors are, or what your place in the market is
• you get a designer who has completely different cultural ideas about colour and symbols (for example, red is a lucky colour in china, over here people associate it with danger)
• you don't see the logo in process so you could easily get a ripped off logo and suffer copyright issues down the line. (this happened to a client who came to us when his 'logo' turned out to be taken from a stock art site and he started getting lawyers letters)

Never been an issue for me, and I've outsourced maybe 100 graphics jobs.

 

[paddi22]

I happily outsource web development stuff all the time and have no issue with it 90% of the time. I have never successfully seen graphics work out-sourced for any kind of largish company's graphic needs.

A designer not immersed in the companies market just cannot understand the elements needed to make a brand connect with an irish audience and be relevant. I'm not talking about very small companies tho, I'm talking about any company with ambitions to increase their profile and grow their company.


I have worked doing consulting with companies for years who outsource graphics projects and I genuinely think its more hassle than its worth
• takes too long to make what you need understood clearly
• no reliable communications - time zones can be a nightmare if there are deadlines
• anything requiring text content come back requiring more work to correct them than to do it from scratch.
• the stock art and photography they use are never correct for the irish market, they always use cheesy ones that are too american looking
• just the hassle of not being able to sit on a designers side and make small changes quickly

I can appreciate maybe if its very low quality or cheap n' cheerful stuff it might be possible, but for anything else I just think its more hassle then its worth.

 

[UFC]

Can't say I've experienced any of that, although I would agree with you on two things:

Having a designer sitting next to you is great.
Having the designer in the Irish legal system (should things go wrong...) is nice insurance.

 

[AlbacoreA]

When you read this thread it demonstrates why theres no money in design unless its work on big projects, usually sourced outside of Ireland.

 

[jack2009]

It seems that the designers view themselves as providing a service as opposed to selling a commodity.

You can't realistically go into an accountant and say I need my accounts done and I have €1,000 to pay you in fees. I mean you can but it's unlikely.

On the other hand you can go into Louis Copeland and say I have €500 to spend on a suit, what can that get me.

Preparing accounts and designing a logo are completely different. Preparing accounts leads to the same answer so the amount of time required to complete the job is somewhat fixed.

Design, is different! If I only had €200 I could get a logo designed granted not a lot of thought would have gone into it but it would still be a logo. Also, I often wonder why people spend so much time and money on their particular logo's because to the average Joe Soap the meaning of the logo is to arty farty.

Out of interest, what about the likes of IBM, Microsoft and Apple their logo's are very simple, the companies have done very well but I would hardly think a lot of thought went into them. But they are very easily identified.

If your budget is €400 stick with it give or take a few euros, no point breaking the bank. If your business grows and becomes more successful then you can always do a rebrand later in life. I dont believe a logo alone will determine the future of your company.

 

[AlbacoreA]

...
Design, is different! If I only had €200 I could get a logo designed granted not a lot of thought would have gone into it but it would still be a logo. Also, I often wonder why people spend so much time and money on their particular logo's because to the average Joe Soap the meaning of the logo is to arty farty.
....

I disagree. Even kids are brand and thus logo aware these days.

 

[jack2009]

I disagree. Even kids are brand and thus logo aware these days.

Yes of course but thats not down to the logo its more down to massive marketing campaigns and seeing the brand everywhere. If someone is struggling to pay 400 on a logo you can assume they dont have 40 million set aside for advertising.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Yes of course but thats not down to the logo its more down to massive marketing campaigns and seeing the brand everywhere. If someone is struggling to pay 400 on a logo you can assume they dont have 40 million set aside for advertising.

If someone spending 40 million on advertising their logo doesn't tell you its important, nothing will.

 

[jack2009]

AlbacoreA, they are advertersing their product/service not their logo! How many companies have a squiggle etc as part of their logo yes we all recogonise the squiggle but how few people understand the logo.

Look at a company like say Dyson, we all know the brand etc. but it is very basis but apart from possibly a little bit of a tweek it is the same logo that looks like it was designed himself when he had little/no money and what money he had went into making the product development etc..

We know the logo not because it represents a good hoover but because the product works.

Look at places like PWC, they have loads of money and no doubt spent a lot of money on time deciding on the font etc. but at the end of the day its just "PWC" their services reputation etc. speak for itself. Then compare that to say Grant Thornton who recently decided to put a purple donut before their name. What does the purple donut represent and how has it actually helped them win work?

 

[AlbacoreA]

I think if someone sees a Nike logo on a T-Shirt they understand what that signifies about the shirt. Thats all thats required.

Dyson himself is a designer he spent 5 years in art college. He was well aware of what he was doing. Indeed his marketing and branding, has been extremely well designed from the off. Hes gone beyond the logo to making all his products have the same look and feel, the same design. Thus in effect the products themselves are logos in effect.

Personally I've not been that impressed by the Dysons I've used, and some boring normal bagged hoovers, work better in my experience. I suspect its a bit like the VW reliability myth.