As per @candor's point above, you need to be careful with old stone dwellings. However, if you can envelop the walls within insulation and address bridging, the walls effectively become a thermal store, slowly heating as your heating system runs and later slowly releasing heat as the house cools.
Deep Retro-fit.
- Thread starter Pat Smith
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As per @candor's point above, you need to be careful with old stone dwellings. However, if you can envelop the walls within insulation and address bridging, the walls effectively become a thermal store, slowly heating as your heating system runs and later slowly releasing heat as the house cools.
David_Dublin
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Are there "inefficiencies" or any other considerations I should be aware of with running UFH downstairs with standard rads upstairs? Or am I overthinking this?
Coldwarrior
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UFH generally runs at a lower water temperature than radiators, so you may need larger rads upstairs or aluminium ones especially designed for lower water temperatures.
David_Dublin
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Bit confused about this. The boiler runs at one temp. If boiler is on its heating to that one temp. If the boiler is also responsible for heating hot water, then the temp it runs at needs to be considerably higher than UFH needs. Same argument for the standard rads.
I know the manifold mixes cooler water to ensure the water into the UFH is at the correct temp. Always thought this is inefficient - heating water to cool it down.
How woukd people generally heat hot water if they were UFH throughout. Are there smarter boilers that can be programmed to heat at different temps at different times?
It can depend on the source of the heating.
If boiler such as gas or oil, then yes there are inefficiencies because you're heating up water and then cooling it down again (mixing it with cold water) for the uf.
If a hp then as @Coldwarrior say above, larger or aluminium rads needed upstairs.
The main concern with mixing rads and u/f is though, imo, you are mixing a quick response distribution system with a slow response one. Also impacting this choice is the level of thermal mass available to utilise to help manage the temperature fluctuations and comfort. It can work well where you have a high thermal mass and u/f downstairs combined with maybe lower thermal mass and rads upstairs so it's not a simple question to answer without taking other aspects into account.
David_Dublin
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Coldwarrior
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Yes, there are gas boilers that can run at different temperatures for HW zones and heating zones, so say 65C for HW and 35C for heating etc.
Hooverfish
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Roundtower Lime (Richard Good-Stephenson from Lochplace) claim to have a product for this: [broken link removed] but I remain to be convinced. It says it's a base coat - I think that you'd have to use some sort of harling on top as well so I figure it would add 120mm to the house all round - not sure how that could be managed as the walls would then be wider than the Penrhyn slate roof...? The traditional small farmhouse windows have sills are 18 inches deep already so I think it would make the house a lot darker too.
Interestingly, I couldn't quote your post @Hooverfish as the forum software thinks it's spam like in nature 
It's an area that I'm very interested in at the moment, as we are in the process of buying an old farm cottage. It needs renovation or rebuilding but I'm thinking of a sensitve renovation, provided it can be made comfortable.
I'll certainly look into that option, as we would likely need to replace the roof at some point and could factor that in.
A simple way albeit not as energy efficient would be a hemp-lime plaster on both sides and plenty of insulation in the attic space. To heat the house I'm thinking about a gasifying wood boiler.
It's an area that I'm very interested in at the moment, as we are in the process of buying an old farm cottage. It needs renovation or rebuilding but I'm thinking of a sensitve renovation, provided it can be made comfortable.
I'll certainly look into that option, as we would likely need to replace the roof at some point and could factor that in.
A simple way albeit not as energy efficient would be a hemp-lime plaster on both sides and plenty of insulation in the attic space. To heat the house I'm thinking about a gasifying wood boiler.
Hooverfish
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Interestingly, I couldn't quote your post @Hooverfish as the forum software thinks it's spam like in nature
It's an area that I'm very interested in at the moment, as we are in the process of buying an old farm cottage. It needs renovation or rebuilding but I'm thinking of a sensitve renovation, provided it can be made comfortable.
I'll certainly look into that option, as we would likely need to replace the roof at some point and could factor that in.
A simple way albeit not as energy efficient would be a hemp-lime plaster on both sides and plenty of insulation in the attic space. To heat the house I'm thinking about a gasifying wood boiler.
Renovate if you can - that's what we did ourselves, 30 years ago, no regrets. Richard's given me details of plasterers who can come and talk to me about the job but of course, they are going to say they can do it no problem - whereas I'd love to find someone with an engineering background regarding thermal bridging etc. who has experience working on old houses, to get advice from. Let me know if you find one @candor . I did previously try to find an architect, but after initial enquiries to two or three, they are busy and seem mainly interested in well-funded public renovation projects, not so much the intricacies of trad. farmhouses and cottages and the SEAI/BER rules.
It is certainly what we are leaning towards, just have to take a good detailed look at the house. We are fans of preserving and enhancing what is existing if possible.
I'll let you know if we find someone in that regard. A good friend of ours is a semi retired architect that is pretty sensitive with projects like this.
Hooverfish
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We found the guides that the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings in the UK produce to be really good regarding all building conservation issues. SPAB was founded by William Morris.
DublinHead54
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I've recently purchased a 1960's semi-detached with a BER rating of F, which is a bit surprising given the house is in much better condition than other properties I viewed with similar or slightly better BER. The house does not require a deep retrofit/renovation immediately, however, in 2 years we will probably look at the reconfiguration of the layout along the lines of combining the dining/kitchen and potentially building a first floor extension above the garage. Therefore, I am looking at the most efficient way for improving the efficiency of the house by doing relatively small jobs that will not be impacted by the longer-term works or essentially the biggest bang for my buck.
This thread has shown the importance of airtightness which I had not really considered and had been considering the below
1. Replace the front door, it is the original wooden door replace with PVC or equivalent to give a better seal
2. Replace Front of house windows as it is old double glazing. Planning to only replace the front as the back gets good sunlight and due to future renovations they could potentially be impacted
3. Suspended Floors Downstairs - I was going to replace the current carpet with a good quality laminate and put the best insulation underneath and also seal with silicon or other sealant any air gaps between the floor boards and walls (is this safe?). I grew up in a house which had suspended floors and we put down a wooden floor, I don't remember it being uncomfortable or cold.
4. Boiler / Radiators - The boiler is <5 years old but the radiators are old but overall the system seems in good condition, so I was going to consider replacing the radiators.
I am now thinking I should get one of those airtightness tests, but not sure if I should just wait until I do the windows, front doors, floors as those will obviously be flagged as weaknesses.
Any advice much appreciated!
This thread has shown the importance of airtightness which I had not really considered and had been considering the below
1. Replace the front door, it is the original wooden door replace with PVC or equivalent to give a better seal
2. Replace Front of house windows as it is old double glazing. Planning to only replace the front as the back gets good sunlight and due to future renovations they could potentially be impacted
3. Suspended Floors Downstairs - I was going to replace the current carpet with a good quality laminate and put the best insulation underneath and also seal with silicon or other sealant any air gaps between the floor boards and walls (is this safe?). I grew up in a house which had suspended floors and we put down a wooden floor, I don't remember it being uncomfortable or cold.
4. Boiler / Radiators - The boiler is <5 years old but the radiators are old but overall the system seems in good condition, so I was going to consider replacing the radiators.
I am now thinking I should get one of those airtightness tests, but not sure if I should just wait until I do the windows, front doors, floors as those will obviously be flagged as weaknesses.
Any advice much appreciated!
Without a decent amount of work, a 1960's semi-d is likely to be too leaky to be able to perform a true air-tightness test. It might be like blowing into a sponge and trying to identify which holes the air is coming out through.
DublinHead54
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What equates to 'decent' amount of work. The other options I see are
1. Insulate between the floorboards, though I'd rather just seal holes and use good insulating underlay on ground floor.
2. Insulate the roof space
3. Insulate between the walls / or some form of internal wall insulation.
David_Dublin
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I put a layer of really thin mdf, 6mm, on my suspended floors downstairs before putting down thick underlay (11mm), and deep pile carpet. I taped up all the joints, taped to skirts. Pretty much airtight by the time we put down the underlay and carpet. It has made the world of difference to the house.
It is these types of houses where the air tightness test comes into its own. Tested a house yesterday well north of 15 m3/hr/m2 and the top 3 issues found, when sorted, will go a long way to cutting the leakage by at least 2/3rds. And, none of these issues were obvious to the owner before the test.
My advice is if you're going to have the survey / test done anyway, have it done sooner rather than later. The value of having it done it not just in finding and quantifying the issues but also in outlining the possible solutions which you may be able to incorporate into other home improvements projects.
Finding out too late that there is an issue after you have already done some work in an area is not ideal. A good example of this is where people think their windows are an issue because they feel draughts and plan on having them replaced. In a very lot of cases it is found that the actual windows can be generally fine but the issue is how they were initially installed which is the cause of the draughts. Often then replacing the windows does not address the real issue. While this is just an example, it shows that knowing ahead of time what to look out for is key to planning improvements.
That's really interesting. Would you mind detailing what the three top issues in that house were?
I'm guessing things like External doors? Light fixtures? Floors?
DublinHead54
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How much should one of these tests cost?