David Norris and academic discussions.

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I have no interest in reading the story but did he write a letter defending someone who had sex with a 15 year old boy? I wouldn't defend a family member never mind an ex if they were accused of statutory rape. This combined with the previous comments does show dubious views on the subject of sex and underage minors.
 
Purple said:
I don't see a problem with the letter he wrote.
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He used a covering letter with Oireachtas letterhead and stated he was on the foreign affairs bureau.
And a lot of name dropping going on, talking about his years as a senator and future plans to run for President.

The letter seems he is talking on behalf of the Irish state.

If he used unmarked paper without the government Harp and left off his positions and just defended his friend it would be entirely different

Bobby Molloy resigned as a Minister for less then this. He is finished in the race though I doubt he'll resign from the Senate. Politicans in Ireland rarely resign over anything, some neck on them
 

Previous to these revelations I had an intention of voting for him,not anymore.
His Judgement is flawed on a dramatic scale,he seems to have some sort of blind spot for matters relating to a very sensitive and very black and white issue...
He is unelectable.
 

OK, fair points.
 
I think Norris is sunk. He really should just withdraw with some dignity. Having said that, I'm amazed at how dirty this campaign has been and it seems like there has been a concerted effort to scupper Norris.

Who'd have thought people would care enough about the Presidency to engage in such dirty doins?
 
I do wonder what the reaction would have been had a bishop or priest writen a letter asking for clemancy for a child abuser in their parish?. Let's not forget that that is what statutory rape is, since by definition, a child cannot give consent.

I would have been open to voting for Norris until all of this came out. I've no doubt that there is a campaign to stop him running but so what? What this does is raise a huge question mark about the judgement, intelligence and common sense of Norris, or his lack of one or more of these.
 

We're talking about a fifteen year old, a male who was one year short of the age of consent, not an eight year old.
Matters are not as clear cut as some would like to make them and terms like child abuser seem inaccurate in context.
More importantly lobbying seeking clemency in sentencing for known criminals is not forbidden by law and worse than Ezra Nawi have been succoured by politicians.

Firstly, Norris' appeal to the Israeli was not written on Seanad Headed Paper, was not sent directly to the court, nor was it an attempt to interfere with the verdict.

He wrote a fax cover noted on headed paper, and a letter of reference on headed paper.
The wordy appeal was on plain paper and he sets his stall out very plainly.
It was clearly a personal appeal, not made on behalf of, or with the backing of, the Government.
It was sent to his partner's defense laywers in case it would be useful to assist in submissions to the court.

Secondly, in relation to the substantive issue, Norris' made a case for clemency based on Irish law and then-recent decisions.
Was it reasonable to seek for clemency based on Irish or Israeli law?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#Israel

Israel

According to the Israeli Penal Code of 1977 the age of consent in Israel is 16 for any form of sexual relations. A special case arises when a person between ages 14–16 had sexual relations with an older partner; in this case the older partner would be exempt of criminal liability if three conditions are met: The age difference between the partners was less than three years, the younger partner gave consent and the act was done out of "regular friendly relations" and without the abuse of power.[27]

===============

Norris' partner was ruled out of this on the age ground since I understand he was in his early forties when the incident occurred and the young male was a year below the age of consent.
Re the other two grounds the other two I am not informed enough to comment.

However ti is clear that in certain circumstances, which are outlined above in Israeli law, consent may be given from the 14 years of age upwards.
It appears Norrris had reasonable grounds to make a case for clemency, based on Israeli law, his partner being his mother's sole means of support and his fear that he would commit suicide while in prison.

===============

Those are the only two issues a democracy should consider, but the sentiment expressed on the journal and elsewhere over the weekend defames Norris himself as being a pedophile and a supporter of pedophiles.
I'm astonished at the number of right-wing religious homophobes this presidency has drawn out, so much so that it cannot be due to the statistical average of the population of Ireland.
I suspect that all of that is a smokescreen and deals are being done to take out the previously most popular and the most naive presidential candidate we had.

As for Norris previous alleged 'gaff' of wanting to have met an older male when he was younger, this has been translated by the religious right as supporting pederasty.
I found this troublesome since many a young heterosexual male might wish the same thing of an older woman, yet attract no comment.

Perhaps Norris' frankness ruptured a conservative vein containing both an ageist and a homophobic substratum.
Its embarrassing having live through the sixties, seventies and eighties to see 1950's mores return.

ONQ.
 
In the light of TDs now withdrawing their support, I think its time David Norris faced reality and withdrew from the election race. In the light of the most recent revelations, I think that his past would detract from the office of the Presidency.

Daithi
 
His ex partner was a lot more three years older than the 15 year old boy. He was found guilty of the offence. I can't believe that people actually think it is ok to defend anyone accused of statutory rape. We jump on our high horses about the catholic church and their protection of children but some people think it is ok for a grown man to be in a 'relationship' with a 15 year old and that they deserve some sort of leniency. Amazing.
 
Oh and spare me the right wing, anti-gay conspiracy rubbish. This is all self inflicted.
 

That is a gross misrepresentation of [broken link removed].

There is a covering letter. On headed paper.
There is a letter giving references. On headed paper.
There is a long submission citing Irish law and offering opinion and bona fides. Not on headed paper.
It is quite clearly a personal letter and not a letter written by or on behalf of or representating the Irish Government in any way.

Norris set out his stall fairly and squarely.
There was little or no "name dropping" (what a begrudging comment)
At no point did Norris represent himself as representing the Irish State in the letter.

If anyone can show that Norris
- has not achieved the degrees
- has not highlighted the human rights abuses or
- has not chanpioned the causes of Russian Jews or anything else he claimed he did

Then let them do so.

But it is these claims more than any other thing that make this letter out to be personal letter from Norris.
Because our government cannot claim the same achievements re any of these issues.

ONQ.
 
Sunny said:
Oh and spare me the right wing, anti-gay conspiracy rubbish. This is all self inflicted.
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It clearly is not self-inflicted.
All this happened well outside the statute of limitations and he committed no crime.
This is simply dirt, pure and simple.
Thrown by attention seeking bloggers with both Israeli sympathies and Labour Party connections to undermine a candidate.

ONQ.
 
If Norris was a TD and out fighting cut throat elections over the years we'd know all this already.

He's never had a hard election in his life, strolling into the "rotten borough" of TCD which only a limited number of citizens can vote for.

He clearly has a lot of stories in his past and this one and the tapes are not even big issues.

It was his defence of Cathal Ó Searcaigh and his attempt to get a government committee to review the RTÉ documentary before it could be aired that was the real story and this wasn't even brought up in recent months. The media never used it.
If a bishop wanted to block a documentary before RTÉ aired it, this site would melt under the cries of censorship

But sure lets call anyone who questions him a homophobe with an agenda....
 
Sunny said:
His ex partner was a lot more three years older than the 15 year old boy.
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(nods)

That can be inferred from what I posted.
He was found guilty of the offence. I can't believe that people actually think it is ok to defend anyone accused of statutory rape.
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His defence counsel defended him. Norris sought clemency after he was convicted. Politicians intervene like this regularly without attracting comment.
We jump on our high horses about the catholic church and their protection of children but some people think it is ok for a grown man to be in a 'relationship' with a 15 year old and that they deserve some sort of leniency. Amazing.
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The seeking after leniency arises from looking at the person in the round, at his achievements, his dependent mother and Norris' fear that he would take his own life while in prison.

No-one said they thought it was "okay" for a much older man to engage in sexual relationship with a 15 year old young man, but it seems unwise to consider a fifteen year old teenager "a child".

At the very least its condescending, and in biological terms its factually inaccurate.

As for the other facts of the matter, Israeli law strongly states by omission that its okay for a 16 year old male or female to be in a relationship with a grown man or woman of any age.

ONQ
 
So you would let your 15 year old child enter into a relationship with someone more than twice their age? The age on consent might be 16 but that's not the problem. The problem is a grown man thinking it is acceptable to have a so called relationship with anyone around that age. It is wrong and exploitative. It's not two teenage kids deciding to have sex. The fact that Norris (and other people) struggle to recognise this is disturbing.
 
micmclo said:
If Norris was a TD and out fighting cut throat elections over the years we'd know all this already.

He's never had a hard election in his life, strolling into the "rotten borough" of TCD...
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More begrudgery or mere begrudgery?
...which only a limited number of citizens can vote for.
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Like Mary Robinson ? Yeah I can see where some corners of Irish society might be worried we'd get a firebrand president.
He clearly has a lot of stories in his past and this one and the tapes are not even big issues.
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Lots and lots of stories, many about making unpopular submissions on human rights issues I believe.
It was his defence of Cathal Ó Searcaigh and his attempt to get a government committee to review the RTÉ documentary before it could be aired that was the real story and this wasn't even brought up in recent months. The media never used it.
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No, perish the thought they might show David Norris urging caution to the government of the day in case they impeded a later court action by creating conditions where Cathal Ó Searcaigh might not get a fair trial. That might make David Norris out to be a man of integrity.
If a bishop wanted to block a documentary before RTÉ aired it, this site would melt under the cries of censorship
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But he didn't seek to block it permanently. He wanted it to be reviewed by the competent authority.
But sure lets call anyone who questions him a homophobe with an agenda....
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Let's not.
Instead lets just look at the facts - arguably something a "a homophobe with an agenda" would never do.

First, an overview setting out the dramatis personae on all sides (including Eoghan Harris as a supporter of Nirris later position as I understand the piece, not one who'd spring to mind when support for alleged pederasts is mentioned)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairytale_of_Kathmandu

Senator David Norris defended Ó Searcaigh in Seanad Éireann: "An attempt has been made to create such a firestorm of hostile publicity that justice may never retrospectively be done."[19]

Second, the 'full monte' so to speak -

[broken link removed]

Of which the relevant excerpts appear to be as follows -

"I refer to the film, "Fairytale of Kathmandu", which purports to document the exploitation of young men in Nepal by the Donegal poet Cathal Ó Searcaigh. Having seen this work, I have grave concerns about the motives and methods employed. It is proposed to transmit the film on RTE tonight. As public money has been spent on the film, we are entitled to know the truth wherever it leads. Therefore, I call for its exhibition to be postponed until a full investigation by those qualified in the analysis of film has established the truth or falsehood of the techniques used in its production and the conclusions reached in it. The correct forum for such an investigation is the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources."

"While it has been denied, it is clear that systematic creative editing has taken place. For example, the most disturbing image in the film is a sequence showing Mr. Ó Searcaigh lovingly straightening the tie of what appears to be a 14 or 15 year old schoolboy with a satchel on his back. While Narang is indeed boyish looking, he is a 20 year old physics student in a third level college. His words need to be heard. He was over the age of 18 when the film was made. In an interview voluntarily given, he alleges he was told he had been abandoned by Cathal Ó Searcaigh. He was naturally angry. He claims to have been pressurised into giving the answers the film-makers wanted. He has since said: "They make me say things, they twist their questions and make me say Cathal was not a good man". Is Narang's voice to be smothered?"

"I call for this film to be referred to the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources so that the truth can be established with the assistance of experts."

Only an incredibly stupid right wing religious homophobe would declare there was anything wrong in preventing such a defamation taking place on television in Ireland.
To allow such a defamation to occur could have prevented any court case taking place in this jurisdiction as it would have unfairly biased the jury.

If people genuinely want to bring pederasts to trial, they need to understand the pitfalls of the airwaves.
The very exposition they seek may taint a latter meaningful legal action, however well founded in fact.

Norris, in preventing the screening of what sounds like a biased documentary, actually paved the way for a legal action should it go forward.
People repeating others' comments should do their research and understand the legal implications of what they are alleging.

ONQ.

PS From the same day as the above comments, the Seanad Order of Business

[broken link removed]

15. ‘‘In the light of the European Parliament Report on Extraordinary Rendition which
calls on the Irish Government to establish a Committee of Inquiry into the role played
by Shannon Airport in this illegal process, that Seanad E´ ireann immediately
recommence moves initiated in 2006 to establish a Special Committee to look into
this matter and that in the light of further disclosures about ‘CIA Rendition Flights’
to torture destinations and the involvement in these practises as victims of women
and children, condemns such activities in the most unequivocal manner; and calls for
the establishment of an International War Crimes Tribunal to determine the guilt or
innocence of the most senior US and British personnel.’’
—Senators David Norris, Ivana Bacik, Joe O’Toole.
[13 September, 2007]

His consistent and insistent line on human rights is the main reason why I have supported and will continue to support David Norris for president.
 
Sunny said:
So you would let your 15 year old child enter into a relationship with someone more than twice their age?
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Are you the same person who brought my son into this on another forum?

Is that all you've got to say - making it personal?

This could get embarrassing for you.

Read the AAM posting policy

The age on consent might be 16 but that's not the problem.
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Oh but it is a problem for right wing religious fundamentalist homophobes as well as judges, it puts the young man within a year of the age of consent.

Plus Israeli law itself makes allowance for sexual relationships with 14 year olds, never mind 15- year olds - something the religious right just cannot get their heads around.
The problem is a grown man thinking it is acceptable to have a so called relationship with anyone around that age. It is wrong and exploitative. It's not two teenage kids deciding to have sex.
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I agree. Norris never condoned the acts of his partner. He apparently deeply loved him and seems to have put up with a lot from him
The fact that Norris (and other people) struggle to recognise this is disturbing.
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Norris is well versed in the law.

He doesn't struggle to recognize anything.
He didn't interfere in the due process, he sought mercy.

Mercy being something right wing religious homophobes would know little about.
"Mercy" isn't their "thing" - they go in more for "guilt", "condemnation" and "suffering in hellfire".

ONQ.
 
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