Cut the dole to cut higher tax rates

I would like to see the PRSI contribution ceiling restored (was 52K pre-2009, then 75K until 2011 then removed). For 'pay-related' social insurance, capped benefits should mean capped contributions as is the case in many european countries.
 
TheBigShort said:
So what im asking is for other concrete proposals.
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Hi Shortie

In my original article and in this heading, I have three which would dramatically improve the fairness of the system and restore the incentive to work.

1) Cut the levels of social welfare down to the levels paid in other European countries
2) Cut the higher level of tax
3) Convert the current social insurance system into a PRSI Account system. The more you put in, the more you get out when you are unemployed or sick and when you draw down a pension.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Why is it undesirable that a medical consultant after 10 years' training and 10 further years' experience should be paid 10 times more than someone who is collecting glasses in a pub?

I would have thought it was very desirable.
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Agreed.



Brendan Burgess said:
It may be possible to increase the amount of well paid work, but there will always be a demand for unskilled, low paid work.
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And if there are fewer unskilled people as more of them are skilled then the market rate for unskilled labour will increase.
 
Fella,

There are those ,and they are few , who being on Dole is a rational choice.
But to say Dole should cut for the majority of recipients because of the few is not good policy.

Anyone who has been on Dole ,would view Dole not as a life choice but a help whilst they get work.

I would think vast majority of people move from Dole ASAP.
 
Gerry Canning said:
Fella,

There are those ,and they are few , who being on Dole is a rational choice.
But to say Dole should cut for the majority of recipients because of the few is not good policy.

Anyone who has been on Dole ,would view Dole not as a life choice but a help whilst they get work.

I would think vast majority of people move from Dole ASAP.
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If you have worked, and have the fixed costs associated with people who work, and then find yourself on the dole then it is very hard.
If you have a free house for life, a medical card and all the allowances and payments you can screw out of the system then it can be a very viable lifestyle choice.
 
Purple said:
If you have worked, and have the fixed costs associated with people who work, and then find yourself on the dole then it is very hard.
If you have a free house for life, a medical card and all the allowances and payments you can screw out of the system then it can be a very viable lifestyle choice.
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This has all been dealt with under the "Dismantling..." thread. The people you are talking about are the very thin end of the wedge and any purported savings would be miniscule in the whole scheme of things relative to the poverty you would inflict on those who are genuinely trying to get off the welfare system.
Which incidentally, the numbers of unemployed have reduced again today.
You see, when there are jobs available people will work them.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Shortie

In my original article and in this heading, I have three which would dramatically improve the fairness of the system and restore the incentive to work.

1) Cut the levels of social welfare down to the levels paid in other European countries
2) Cut the higher level of tax
3) Convert the current social insurance system into a PRSI Account system. The more you put in, the more you get out when you are unemployed or sick and when you draw down a pension.

Brendan
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More a wish list surely Brendan ? , would you agree that there is absolutely no chance of such proposals being implemented for the foreseeable future ?
The chances of any of our current political parties implementing such politically toxic policies are nil , perhaps if Renua had gained any traction or if the PD'S hadn't imploded there might have been some chance but they surely wouldn't have implemented policies to the extent you suggest .
in terms of concrete proposals I would suggest that the USC be reduced gradually as and when our finances allow in tandem with improving social welfare payments.
After viewing both Claire Byrne & VB last night I reckon I'm on the right track.
 
TheBigShort said:
This has all been dealt with under the "Dismantling..." thread. The people you are talking about are the very thin end of the wedge and any purported savings would be miniscule in the whole scheme of things relative to the poverty you would inflict on those who are genuinely trying to get off the welfare system.
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That's your opinion, backed up by your opinion.

TheBigShort said:
You see, when there are jobs available people will work them.
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Most do, yes, as long as they are financially better off working.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Shortie

In my original article and in this heading, I have three which would dramatically improve the fairness of the system and restore the incentive to work.

1) Cut the levels of social welfare down to the levels paid in other European countries
2) Cut the higher level of tax
3) Convert the current social insurance system into a PRSI Account system. The more you put in, the more you get out when you are unemployed or sick and when you draw down a pension.

Brendan
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do you include the state pension in your wish to see social welfare rates brought into line with other european countries ?
 
Brendan Burgess said:
) Cut the levels of social welfare down to the levels paid in other European countries
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Which European countries? Germany? Denmark? Uk? Romania? Poland?
This is just fanciful rhetoric. There is no costings/ savings applied here as it is not possible because of the varying degrees of welfare across other European countries.
How about a concrete proposal? JSA, JSB, FIS, Rent Supplement, Disability Allw?
What will you cut, how much will it save?

Brendan Burgess said:
2) Cut the higher level of tax
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Again too vague. What rate would you apply? 39%? 38?...How much will this cost? Do you propose resourcing the shortfall from lower income earners who only pay the 20% rate? How would you propose implementing this?


Brendan Burgess said:
3) Convert the current social insurance system into a PRSI Account system. The more you put in, the more you get out when you are unemployed or sick and when you draw down a pension.
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Not a bad idea, but again short on details. Sounds like it would be costly, bearing in mind that a minimum pension will still have to be paid.

Here is the thing, I have already proposed one possible option (applying the 1% USC rate to all income) with figures. All im looking for is at least one other concrete proposal, with figures to back it up.

Its a pretty weak position, when the person opposed to the proposal is digging out the other side!
 
Deiseblue said:
More a wish list surely Brendan ? , would you agree that there is absolutely no chance of such proposals being implemented for the foreseeable future ?
The chances of any of our current political parties implementing such politically toxic policies are nil , perhaps if Renua had gained any traction or if the PD'S hadn't imploded there might have been some chance but they surely wouldn't have implemented policies to the extent you suggest .
in terms of concrete proposals I would suggest that the USC be reduced gradually as and when our finances allow in tandem with improving social welfare payments.
After viewing both Claire Byrne & VB last night I reckon I'm on the right track.
Click to expand...

in order to know what the mood of the public is , rightly or wrongly you need to see where FF are when judging the pulse of the nation , FF have moved sharply to the left since michael martin took over , not once during the election campaign did i hear him speak of tax cuts , improved state sector efficiency or a more lean social welfare state , its all about increasing the size of the state

this is where the population is for the most part right now , tax and spend !
 
galway_blow_in said:
in order to know what the mood of the public is , rightly or wrongly you need to see where FF are when judging the pulse of the nation , FF have moved sharply to the left since michael martin took over , not once during the election campaign did i hear him speak of tax cuts , improved state sector efficiency or a more lean social welfare state , its all about increasing the size of the state

this is where the population is for the most part right now , tax and spend !
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FF's lurch to the left is more a reaction to the threat of Sinn Féin than anything else.
 
galway_blow_in said:
in order to know what the mood of the public is , rightly or wrongly you need to see where FF are when judging the pulse of the nation , FF have moved sharply to the left since michael martin took over , not once during the election campaign did i hear him speak of tax cuts , improved state sector efficiency or a more lean social welfare state , its all about increasing the size of the state

this is where the population is for the most part right now , tax and spend !
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I agree. We have the choice of center-left (FG), more left (FF & Labour) or Loony-Left (AAA/PBP, Shinners (ROI version), and the Great Unwashed (Mick Wallace and Clare Daily).)
 
TheBigShort said:
Any proposals yet in how to redress the suffering of the top 20% of income earners?
Using real figures mind!
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From the man who started a thread about pay rises with a far more nebulous premise.

If we accept that the tax system is unfairly burdensome on those who are medium to high earners then the details of how to solve the problem can follow.
 
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