Current public sentiment towards the housing market?

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Yes but a move from 5.5% to 6.6% on a repayment mortgage(30year) only adds 12% to monthly repayment. We're going too far off topic here but needless to say the effect is far more pronounced here and was evident in those on variable rates to a lesser extent in america a couple of years ago. The structure of the american mortgage market prevents such an effect being too widespread for too long among FTB's in particular.
 
bearishbull said:
5.5% to 6.6% on a repayment mortgage(30year) only adds 12% to monthly repayment.

You must be selling mortgages :)

Someone mentioned earlier that it had happened in the US so it could happen here. I was pointing out why it might have happened in the US but that the same reason does not apply here. In the US, it would have been less to do with approval limits and more to do with getting a good deal.

The effect in Ireland would have been from misguided borrowers who just wanted maximum mortgage approval. It's not too far off-topic, as it relates to sentiment.
 
Just an observation...

I've been following these boards for a while now, and they always seem bearish. If you look back over the past few years (e.g. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=6238 ) you'll see that almost everyone is warning you off everything. If you took all of this advice to heart you would have lost out on huge property growth in Ireland.

I realise that prudence is key, but you have to take a risk on something or you're never going to make money on anything. Check out the various forums at the moment and the best advice you will get is stick all your money in Northern Rock! I thought property investment was about long-term returns? If so, what's the big problem with investing now? (ok, ok, yields - but yields have been a problem for years).

Does anyone have any bullish comments on any actual investments, apart from a 3% return in a deposit account? Stocks? Overseas properties? Commodities? Dare I say it, Irish property?!!
 
Apsil said:
If you took all of this advice to heart you would have lost out on huge property growth in Ireland

Your name isn't Bertie is it?

Apsil said:
Does anyone have any bullish comments on any actual investments, apart from a 3% return in a deposit account? Stocks? Overseas properties? Commodities? Dare I say it, Irish property?!!

This is a thread about "Current public sentiment towards the housing market", not alternative investments.
 
Good post Apsil, I'd argue the main difference between now and two years ago is that globally two years ago was boom time, and we are very exposed to the global market.
Now its turning, look to the US housing market, its in recession and frankly tottering on the precipice if earlier posts and links are accurate, two years ago the US market was full of flippers thinking like the current Irish "Investors" that they discovered a perpetual money making machine.

Sentiment is different this time, just look at the amount of thread views, most people including heavyweights like the IMF ( http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1667129&issue_id=14469 ) are warning about our economy and in particular the housing part of it.

Some are now calling the top of the market, am wondering we are there yet myself, but not going to call that till November 1st.
 
Apsil said:
I realise that prudence is key, but you have to take a risk on something or you're never going to make money on anything.

You have made a fair point Apsil. What about starting a business?

Sentiment has been so strong with regard to property that "investors" have been singularly focused on buying more of it. With rising rates and a weakening market, I suspect that people might become interested in real business again.
 
Following from comments made about the US property scene vis a vis our own - Really good article in the Observer on Sunday:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1838202,00.html


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]'Dead zone' threat to US suburban dream[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Petrol price rises may cause the housing bubble to burst, triggering global recession and the fall of America's Eden, writes Paul Harris in New York[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif] Sunday August 6, 2006
The Observer


[/FONT] Levitown is a bus ride beyond the aptly named Hicksville in the outer suburbs of New York. Its lawns are neat and its houses boxy. From many gardens fly American flags and yellow ribbons: typical displays of suburban patriotism.It was here, almost 60 years ago, that modern American suburbia was born. Work began on the town in 1947 and Long Island potato fields were soon covered with a radical new form of housing: single, similar, purpose-built houses designed for car-owners and aimed at families. At the time it was a shock. Social scientists scoffed at Levittown. But within decades the suburban experiment had come to define US life and what began in Levittown now covers the country in urban sprawl, strip malls and a way of life revolving around the car.

Article continueshttp://image.guardian.co.uk/Ads/MPU/arrow9x7.gif
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Now there are fears it is coming to an end. For the past five years America has been gripped by a housing price bubble. It has funded a huge expansion of suburbia as Americans poured their wealth into their homes. Yet many think that bubble may be about to burst. That would send shock waves through the US economy and into the rest of the world. Nor is that the only threat. The rising price of oil is squeezing suburbanites. It threatens a way of life where pavements are rare and everyone moves by car.'We have invested all our wealth in a living arrangement with no future,' said James Howard Kunstler, author of the Long Emergency which postulates the end of suburbia. 'In building suburbia we embarked on the greatest misallocation of wealth in the history of the world.'
Not that it looked that way in Levittown last week. Kids were driven to school, fathers and mothers drove off to work, the retired sheltered indoors from the heat. Most had an obvious pride in where they lived. 'It's quiet and its peaceful. It's great here. I know it's the suburbs but it is where you want to live to raise a family,' said resident Sherri Smith.
Yet there are real signs America's long and profitable love affair with the suburbs may be over. The past five years have seen an unprecedented rise in house prices, which in turn has triggered a massive building boom. But the pace of house sales in America has now declined nine months in a row after setting a record last summer. Across the US once booming markets are stagnant or prices slipping. One recent survey showed home builders have started offering free add-ons, like pools or garages, in order to sell their houses. Home builder confidence is at its lowest level in 14 years. Fortune magazine recently headlined a piece on the housing bubble with the words: 'Welcome to the Dead Zone'.
It is a far cry from the mania of the past five years when Americans queued up - sometimes literally - to buy homes in new developments, often doubling their investment in 12 months. Not surprisingly the construction industry responded by a binge of development that saw 75 per cent of new building taking place in the suburbs. That has left the economy deeply reliant on housing. Between 2001 and 2005 housing created 43 per cent of all new jobs in America. If the bubble bursts, the economy could plunge into recession. So tied up is the average American that a 20 per cent drop in prices is seen as equivalent in effect to a 40 per cent drop in the stock market.
Though a price collapse would be devastating, trapping homeowners in negative equity and wiping out savings, the fallout cannot be underestimated. Soaring oil prices have threatened suburbia as petrol has risen above $3 a gallon. At the same time heating costs have risen and the so-called McMansions of the 1990s are expensive to keep warm.
'We have these terrible perfect storm conditions. The real estate market in America has gone south. We will get a death spiral,' said Kunstler.
Those warning of a coming crisis believe suburbia's economic collapse would force a rethink of the fundamentals of the American way of life. The cultural and political force of suburbia is vast. It is where most Americans live. From The Graduate to American Beauty to Desperate Housewives, the suburbs pervade culture. Their bonhomie and good living have been celebrated in iconic TV shows such as Father Knows Best. Their dark side has also been explored in everything from David Lynch's surreal films to The Simpsons. 'The great American story has ultimately been told in the suburbs,' said Professor Robert Thompson of Syracuse University.
Thompson has charted how popular portrayals of the suburbs have changed. In the 1950s it was a celebration of their Edenic qualities as a place to raise a family. By the 1980s cynicism had set in. But most Americans have still chosen to live there, which leads some to believe predictions of a crisis are overblown.
Professor Robert Bruegmann of the University of Illinois in Chicago sees the suburban model as the future. In his book, Sprawl, Bruegmann launched a passionate defence of modern urban development that, he argues, has been a great democratic leveller: allowing ordinary working families access to a standard of living previously only available to the wealthy. And the idea of suburbia as a homogeneous, mainly white, cultural desert is a myth. 'They have always been more diverse and interesting than people ever thought,' he said.
Suburbia is home to 38 per cent of black Americans, 58 per cent of Asian Americans and more than half of Hispanics. It is also where most new immigrants choose to live. Bruegmann says the model has been closely copied in Europe and thus: 'High oil prices have no impact on suburbs. We have already had that experiment. It is called Europe.'
He believes antipathy towards the suburbs lies in the snobbishness of elite culture - Victorian styles were ridiculed right up until the 1950s. Now the first suburban houses in Levittown are sought after as historical monuments. Bruegmann thinks tastes will change as suburban living becomes ingrained in the American psyche. 'That Wal-Mart store that everyone now reviles will be seen as quaint. People will say what wonderful construction methods we had back then,' he said. There may be some truth in that. When Levittown was first built, the houses were derided by architectural critics. Now the Smithsonian Institution in Washington wants to buy one.



Interesting: What will happen to our sprawling car dependent suburbs in the most oil dependent , indebted economy in Western Europe?
 
edo said:
Interesting: What will happen to our sprawling car dependent suburbs in the most oil dependent , indebted economy in Western Europe?

Nice article and an excellent question Edo.


Further comparison to the US market. They're saying that the US is over-priced and going to crash, what about this comparison?

$640,000 - 915 sq ft in Ballybough, Dublin 3 : [broken link removed]

$640,000 - 960 sq ft in New York's extremely wealthy Upper East Side : http://realestate.nytimes.com/+comshare/vulisting.asp?Lid=253-NS6060810
 
In fairness, one is a house and the other is an apartment, but i do take your point. however you can't just make straight comparisons like that without taking into account other variables i.e. average earnings per capita and average mortgage repayments as a percentage of average earnings (which is a better guide to affordability than house prices alone).
 
gravitygirl said:
In fairness, one is a house and the other is an apartment, but i do take your point. however you can't just make straight comparisons like that without taking into account other variables i.e. average earnings per capita and average mortgage repayments as a percentage of average earnings (which is a better guide to affordability than house prices alone).

Very few houses in Manhattan unfortunately.

Manhattan has the highest average salary in the US, $77,000 (€60,000)


Who would have thought that good old Ballybough would be more expensive per square foot than the upper east side, New York.

Note : Nothing against Ballybough, that little house just happened to be an even half million.
 
gravitygirl said:
In fairness, one is a house and the other is an apartment, but i do take your point. however you can't just make straight comparisons like that without taking into account other variables i.e. average earnings per capita and average mortgage repayments as a percentage of average earnings (which is a better guide to affordability than house prices alone).

When you take wages into account it makes the Manhatten one more attractive and the Irish one even more ridiculous.
 
ah but irelands different .we cant be compared to wealthier, economically powerful and sustainable locations with much better infrastructure cos we're the best little country in the world.:rolleyes:
 
bearishbull said:
ah but irelands different .we cant be compared to wealthier, economically powerful and sustainable locations with much better infrastructure cos we're the best little country in the world.:rolleyes:

And condo prices are falling in New York. Its funny old world.:eek:


“At another smaller project, the Abbey, a former parish building on East 16th Street being converted to condominiums, one apartment, a duplex on the top two floors, sold at a discount of $500,000, or about 27 percent below the asking price. Eight of 31 apartments are still listed as available.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/realestate/09cov.html?ei=5090&en=a19d17bcbb688393&ex=1310097600&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
 
Shock horror the new york apartment has a rental yield of around 6%, thats a bit old fashioned aint it! despite a massive house price boom there you can still get a 6% yield on a desirable manhattan property not far from central park, im sure many in ireland would rather a D4 apartment yielding 2% and the high taxes relative to america.
 
Jeez Gravity Girl !

Dont know if I fully understand the point you are trying to make - but I think the rest of the guys have pretty much nailed it already.

there is no way on Gods Earth that property price per square foot is worth more in BallyBough than Manhattans upper east side .

Apartment versus House is irrelevant here - there only "houses" I know in Manhattan are in the Zoo in Central Park!

With all respect When someone can justify that a relatively neglected,underdeveloped (with lots of potential heh heh!) inner suburb of what is a provincial European City is worth more than a classy gentrified upper class area of one of the Worlds Greatest and wealthiest cities , without a batting an eyelid at the complete absurdity of it all - Then everything that has happened with the property market in this country becomes clear - We've completely lost the friggin plot!

Sayonara Folks - Japanese style property market here we come!
 
Duplex said:
Bidding wars are possibly history for large swathes of the market, negative equity may be a reality (if unidentified) for many recent buyers.
Recent FTB buyers
 
Apsil said:
I realise that prudence is key, but you have to take a risk on something or you're never going to make money on anything. Check out the various forums at the moment and the best advice you will get is stick all your money in Northern Rock! I thought property investment was about long-term returns? If so, what's the big problem with investing now? (ok, ok, yields - but yields have been a problem for years).

The thing is that sometimes the best investments are those where you dont lose any money. And thats why northern rock, with no risk to capital and a guaranteed return for minimal work is seen as a better investment than irish property where your returns are low and not only is our capital at risk but it is also highly iliquid.
 
redo said:
Recent FTB buyers

Surely the LTV figure would determine how much risk a buyer is of falling into negative equity? Whether it's a FTB or a STB if they still have to pay back 90% of their mortgage and there's a drop of 10% then they start to head into negative equity territory...
 
bearishbull said:
Shock horror the new york apartment has a rental yield of around 6%, thats a bit old fashioned aint it! despite a massive house price boom there you can still get a 6% yield on a desirable manhattan property not far from central park, im sure many in ireland would rather a D4 apartment yielding 2% and the high taxes relative to america.

So I guess a question that we must ask is by what % must Irish Property in Dublin be reduced so that its yeilds a similar 6%. Maybe then we will get an idea of how much property is over priced.
 
Afuera said:
Surely the LTV figure would determine how much risk a buyer is of falling into negative equity? Whether it's a FTB or a STB if they still have to pay back 90% of their mortgage and there's a drop of 10% then they start to head into negative equity territory...
Agreed, well spotted
 
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