Croke Park 2 - dead before it gets voted upon

Bill Struth said:

I could, but where would that get me? It wouldn't change a thing.

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There would be no point. A unionised workforce and a unionised management ensures that no meaningful change takes place (i.e. non-performing staff are sacked).
The only thing you would get would be constructive dismissal. As a friend of mine in a 3rd level college says “There’s no bullying like union bullying”.

I would guess it will get similar to many Private Sector institutions which have suffered over the past few years - younger, more liquid people will eventually move on while senior, higher paid, people can't as it generally involves a large pay reduction. Banking would be a case in point.

Kine said:

I would guess it will get similar to many Private Sector institutions which have suffered over the past few years - younger, more liquid people will eventually move on while senior, higher paid, people can't as it generally involves a large pay reduction. Banking would be a case in point.

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Agreed. Smaller organisations in the real private sector will fail and go out of business, which is a good thing. Those in the protected sector, such as banking and the so-called "commercial" semi-states are more of a problem.
They can increase prices and charges as much as they want and still make a profit because they are not exposed to real competition. That in turn pushes up costs throughout the rest of the economy and so endangers jobs in the productive, open, real economy.
If the employees in the ESB earned the average industrial wage then our energy bills would be 25% lower than they are now.

Deiseblue said:

I do sympathise with your older colleagues ( lifers seems a touch pejorative )- they have already suffered 2 payouts & are heading into a third as despite your assertion to the contrary they will not remain unaffected by CPA2 , they continue to do their job even if it is the bare minimum & to be honest it's hard to blame them given the circumstances for basically doing nothing more than their contract demands.

I believe that a huge number of PS employees are going to adopt the aforementioned working model , I was struck by 2 comments I read in the comments section of the papers. - one was from a HSE hospital manager who worked 50 hours a week to keep on top of his role even though his contracted working week was 37 hours ( the additional 13 hours were unpaid as he was not entitled to claim overtime ) , he mentioned that in his experience hospital staff , contrary to some media reports , always weighed in in doing any job when the occasion demanded it however from a managerial point of view he has said that the dreaded word ( from a managerial point of view ) " demarcation " is rearing it's head again as staff are hugely angry - he said he's giving up & is only going to do contracted hours.

The other comment was from a teacher in a disadvantaged area who organised a night class for 40 pupils on a weekly basis but is just demoralised , unappreciated & has cancelled it.

Bill , you are to be commended for doing excellent work during trying times but surely with pay being constantly attacked & promotion unlikely - sometimes you must say to yourself - what's the point ?

One way or the other we are going to see an increasingly angry Public Sector & this is undoubtedly going to be reflected in the services provided

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that's an unbelievable twisting of what Bill Struth said, but so typical of a Union die hard.
If the possibility existed to fire these people, they might start working normally and the likes of Bill would be rewarded for his hard work....and wait for it, the public would get a better 'public service'....but that's always secondary to protecting the useless, inept and downright dishonest within the system

Bill Struth

I think some of your comments (or what's implied by them) are a little unfair. Yes, there are some 'lifers' in the civil service who have been there for years, have no incentive or initiative and think they're killed working if they have to put a few files away. But there are also lots of civil servants who have worked in the civil service for years who are hardworking, talented and make a huge contribution to public service in this country.

Likewise not every civil servant who joined in the last ten years is a bright sharp young thing full of great ideas. Some of them are, some of them are complete dossers and most of them are perfectly normal average reasonably hard working people. However, some of them have joined the civil service with the attitude that they are somehow 'better' or superior to those that were there before them; often with no evidence whatsoever to back up that opinion of themselves.

Re Croke Park 2, I think it will be passed but not as enthusiastically as Croke Park 1. Civil servants are getting weary of being the constant target for blame, criticism and high handed remarks from some people in the private sector that 'they should all take a ten percent cut' etc. Particularly when all of us know or have had dealings with plenty of private sector workers who have not taken pay cuts, continue to get a Christmas bonus, or are lazy, inefficient or unreliable. Any good will or willingness to 'share the pain' has been drained out of civil servants in the last few years. It really has.

Yes, I know there are people in the Private Sector suffering and I feel sorry for them. But I also feel sorry for public servants who are struggling or worrying about their mortgage or working long, long hours and then have to read in the paper that they're doing nothing, are overpaid, should work more hours etc. Believe me, such public servants do exist.

Liaconn, the difference is that the Public Servants employer, the state, is bankrupt.
The fact that public servants are paid using taxes is aso an issue as people don't have a choice as to whether they pay for the waste.

Liaconn

All I'm doing is speaking from my own experience. I have seen it. The indifference of these people going into their annual review meetings because 'it won't matter anyway.' I have seen the way they don't listen whenever they ask me the same thing for the umpteenth time. I have seen the way that they constantly transfer calls to their colleagues such as myself, rather than find out the answer and answer the query themselves.
I'm sick of them and I'm sick of people making excuses for them. They give us all a bad name.

Bill Struth said:

Liaconn

All I'm doing is speaking from my own experience. I have seen it. The indifference of these people going into their annual review meetings because 'it won't matter anyway.' I have seen the way they don't listen whenever they ask me the same thing for the umpteenth time. I have seen the way that they constantly transfer calls to their colleagues such as myself, rather than find out the answer and answer the query themselves.
I'm sick of them and I'm sick of people making excuses for them. They give us all a bad name.

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Yes, Bill, of course these people exist - at all levels in the civil service. But it is not endemic among longer serving civil servants and it is unfair to imply that all older civil servants behave like this. The vast majority of them don't, but some of them do.
Likewise amongst newer recruits there are some who need a good kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language. The vast majority of them work hard, but some don't.

I've a question for the Civil and Public Servants here;
Would you like to see the X% of wasters sacked and your wages not cut by X% or are you happy to take a pay cut in order to continue to carry these people?

Purple said:

I've a question for the Civil and Public Servants here;
Would you like to see the X% of wasters sacked and your wages not cut by X% or are you happy to take a pay cut in order to continue to carry these people?

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I can assure you in my case it's the 1st option...and it could easily be done if there was a will in Govt to fight for it, and the Unions saw the light and stopped defending the indefensible.
But when a crisis like this one, probably as big a crisis as we'll ever encounter in our lifetimes from an national economic point of view, is only seeing minor reforms and death by a thousand cuts....well then, major reform and modernisation of the Civil/Public Service is never going to happen, never

Delboy said:

that's an unbelievable twisting of what Bill Struth said, but so typical of a Union die hard.
If the possibility existed to fire these people, they might start working normally and the likes of Bill would be rewarded for his hard work....and wait for it, the public would get a better 'public service'....but that's always secondary to protecting the useless, inept and downright dishonest within the system

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Relax !

I simply pointed out that the assertion that his older colleagues would be unaffected by the putative CPA2 was incorrect.

The same colleagues are doing the bare minimum in line with their contractual obligations & as I said who can blame them after suffering 2 payouts with another one in the offing.

I then simply illustrated my belief that the bare minimum as per the various contracts across the PS is likely to be the norm with 2 examples .

Disagree with Billsruth - yes , twisted his comments - no !

Unlesss you would like to provide me with an example ?

Delboy said:

I can assure you in my case it's the 1st option...and it could easily be done if there was a will in Govt to fight for it, and the Unions saw the light and stopped defending the indefensible.
But when a crisis like this one, probably as big a crisis as we'll ever encounter in our lifetimes from an national economic point of view, is only seeing minor reforms and death by a thousand cuts....well then, major reform and modernisation of the Civil/Public Service is never going to happen, never

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I am shocked

Just goes to say you never can tell , I never realised you were working in the Public Sector.

Deiseblue said:

I am shocked

Just goes to say you never can tell , I never realised you were working in the Public Sector.

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Not everyone in the Public Sector is a union supporting waster; many are hard working and want to do a good job serving the state. You need to get away from that negative stereotype to the Public Sector

Purple said:

Not everyone in the Public Sector is a union supporting waster; many are hard working and want to do a good job serving the state. You need to get away from that negative stereotype to the Public Sector

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I always thought Delboy worked in finance , I never for a moment thought that it could possibly be the Dept. of Finance for example - presumptuous of me I admit.

Perhap's Delboy is a member of a Union but is somewhat peeved at their current stance , perhaps he will elucidate ?

Purple said:

Not everyone in the Public Sector is a union supporting waster

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Did you mean to write this?

I am a union member in the Public Service (you mentioned Public Sector, but sometimes they are mentioned as being the same) and I certainly would not consider myself a "union supporting waster".

"The Union" is made up of its members who will ultimately vote and decide union policy.

Marion

Deiseblue said:

The same colleagues are doing the bare minimum in line with their contractual obligations & as I said who can blame them after suffering 2 payouts with another one in the offing.

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I took it from Bill's post that these fine beacons of the public service operated at these same low levels of productivity before the cuts started. Perhaps Bill could confirm?

Deiseblue said:

...the TUI with 15000 members are both to recommend that the terms of the proposed deal be rejected.

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Lots of teachers on 65k+ ?

Firefly said:

Lots of teachers on 65k+ ?

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There are a number of teachers in my college working less than 12 hours a week.

One guy told me how "lucky" he was to be teaching 6 hours a week - up from 4 the previous month. He has been qualified for the past 6 years. So that would put him at 29 years of age. 18 + 3 year degree + masters + PGDE.

Marion

Firefly said:

Lots of teachers on 65k+ ?

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God , I had to help you on on the number of pay cuts inflicted on the PS & then assist you on the % maximum pension for retirees - this time you can help yourself www.tui.ie

liaconn said:

Bill Struth

I think some of your comments (or what's implied by them) are a little unfair. Yes, there are some 'lifers' in the civil service who have been there for years, have no incentive or initiative and think they're killed working if they have to put a few files away. But there are also lots of civil servants who have worked in the civil service for years who are hardworking, talented and make a huge contribution to public service in this country.

Likewise not every civil servant who joined in the last ten years is a bright sharp young thing full of great ideas. Some of them are, some of them are complete dossers and most of them are perfectly normal average reasonably hard working people. However, some of them have joined the civil service with the attitude that they are somehow 'better' or superior to those that were there before them; often with no evidence whatsoever to back up that opinion of themselves.

Re Croke Park 2, I think it will be passed but not as enthusiastically as Croke Park 1. Civil servants are getting weary of being the constant target for blame, criticism and high handed remarks from some people in the private sector that 'they should all take a ten percent cut' etc. Particularly when all of us know or have had dealings with plenty of private sector workers who have not taken pay cuts, continue to get a Christmas bonus, or are lazy, inefficient or unreliable. Any good will or willingness to 'share the pain' has been drained out of civil servants in the last few years. It really has.

Yes, I know there are people in the Private Sector suffering and I feel sorry for them. But I also feel sorry for public servants who are struggling or worrying about their mortgage or working long, long hours and then have to read in the paper that they're doing nothing, are overpaid, should work more hours etc. Believe me, such public servants do exist.

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I am with Liaconn here. I have worked in the Public Service, Privave Sector family run businesses and have been self employed. There are excellent workers everywhere just like there are non-performers everywhere.

I'm facing retirement in the not too long distance future and looking forward to it. Like the Johnny Cash song says "I've seen them come and go and seen them die and long ago I stopped asking why" - The song was about San Quentin prison. If I had a euro for everybody I met along the way saying he was going to be a world beater I wouldn't be doing the lotto every Saturday.

The Public Service employees are being made the Bad Guy today. Remember it was not the Public Service workers that broke Ireland Inc. It was crooked Bankers, crooked Private Sector People, crooked politicians that broke Ireland Ltd. None of these crooked people will ever see the inside of any prison.

The government has split the Irish workforce into (a) Private Sector and (b) Public Sector. At the end of the day most of us are employees. Then the master-stroke:- the Public Sector has been split further into (i) Front Line Staff (ii) Back Office Support Staff. The so-called back office support staff have become everybody's cannon fodder as a result.

The government has planted a seed that is germanating in a way for which it was never intended. You dont have to be a genius to predict that the dreaded Blue Flu is on the horizon. Irish Nurses fought for decades to have their working hours reduced and now are to be increased again. Not only are they being increased to 39 hours per week, the first hour overtime is to be worked free every week. So anybody queing up for overtime will have to work 40 hours. The so-called back office staff are being called upon to work an extra 2 hours per week. Sounds like there is nothing much here but this 2 hours extra will be worked to kill overtime in other work areas.

SIPTU and IMPACT are walking a tightrope the thickness of thread. The hierarchy of both unions cannot see the wood from the trees and have for too long been farting in silk. It is about time they did what they have been paid to do and represent their members.