Croke Park 2 - dead before it gets voted upon

[Bill Struth]

Is the "flexi" impacted at all?

You've been told time and again that flexi time benefits both management and staff.

What's your problem with it?

 

[Birroc]

Public servants are indeed getting hit again but it is still true that any private sector workers would jump at the chance of getting an equivalent job in the public sector.

And so we have a plan to save another €1,000,000,000 from the budget deficit, what about the other €14,000,000,000??
5 years of austerity, its very very slow progress (?) and many billions for our kids and grandkids to pay back.

 

[cork]

An opportunity to reform the public sector was missed.

Why hit hurses & keep tiers of administration?

What is wrong with reforming how services are delivered?

 

[Teatime]

An opportunity to reform the public sector was missed.

Why hit hurses & keep tiers of administration?

Agreed, the biggest problem with the HSE and it's budget is the back office bureaucracy. It is simply rediculous. So so many back office resources/roles doing zero value add work. You will not fix the HSE without completely restructuring it and that must include major compulsory redundancies (which should have happened when the health boards were merged) or major redeployments. The front line nurses and doctors are cracking up with the amount of process/admin/paperwork.

 

[NOAH]

this is worrying from the IT today "The document also says that ?there will be full co-operation by the parties with the review (of travel and subsistence arrangements) and the implementation of a standardised system of travel and subsistence across the public service?."

Does this mean they ie the PS workers will get same T&S as our TD's???


And am I right in assuming that TD's are part of the PS and as they all earn over 65k they will get hit and not get an increase for the next 3 years ie into the next electoral period? If true i am well happy but they should ie the TD's get cut a lot more.

noah

 

[Marion]

there are many public sector/service workers hurting badly because of the impact of Croke Park2.

Many of us have mortgages to pay.

Marion

 

[Leper]

.. . . The front line nurses and doctors are cracking up with the amount of process/admin/paperwork.

1. Do the nurses/doctors want to do this work? Have we got Medical Staff doing what clerical officers should be doing? How much overtime does the average nurse do? What overtime pay do they get? What weekend allowances are they paid? What other additional payments do they receive and for what?

2. What clerical work is done by doctors?

3. From what I have listend to from Irish Nurses union representatives is that they are not to do clerical work. Why is this still happening?

I understand much clerical staff in our health boards do not get overtime and must spend unpaid hours trying to catch up on anything necessary. I understand nurses do loads of overtime and that many hospital doctors work in excess of 100 hours per week with overtime of course. Furthermore, Freedom of Information dictates that any patient or former patient must provide details of charts/files pertaining to him. Obviously, these need to be photocopied and sent to the patient; I presume its is clerical staff process these cases? Obviously, the work is unproductive and necessary. If we want this service the taxpayer foots the bill.

We live in a haven for litigation and until this ceases all clerical costs in our health services will be expensive.

 

[gianni]

Public servants are indeed getting hit again but it is still true that any private sector workers would jump at the chance of getting an equivalent job in the public sector.

They should have been looking at

 

[celebtastic]

They should have been looking at

Where the Terms and Conditions offered for any advertised role are far less generous than those enjoyed by incumbent public servants.

So even within the PS, there are now two tiers: one for the existing unionised workforce, and one for new joiners.

You couldn't make it up!!

Ni neart go cur le cheile

 

[Bill Struth]

Where the Terms and Conditions offered for any advertised role are far less generous than those enjoyed by incumbent public servants.

So even within the PS, there are now two tiers: one for the existing unionised workforce, and one for new joiners.


You couldn't make it up!!

Ni neart go cur le cheile

Any chance of an answer to the below???

Were you there as a customer at the public counter?

You've been told time and again that flexi time benefits both management and staff.

What's your problem with it?

 

[Sunny]

Where the Terms and Conditions offered for any advertised role are far less generous than those enjoyed by incumbent public servants.

So even within the PS, there are now two tiers: one for the existing unionised workforce, and one for new joiners.

You couldn't make it up!!

Ni neart go cur le cheile

And private sector companies aren't offering new employees new terms and conditions that are lower than existing employees to reflect new economic reality and the fact that there are more people chasing the same jobs?? Believe me they are because I am one of those doing the chasing.

I think someone above said you were trolling. I have to agree so continue to write what you want but I am not responding anymore.

 

[blueband]

there are many public sector/service workers hurting badly because of the impact of Croke Park2.

Many of us have mortgages to pay.

Marion

many people in the private sector have mortgages to pay and are hurting badly too, only dfference is they dont have job scurity or fat pensions to look forward to.

 

[Protocol]

And am I right in assuming that TD's are part of the PS and as they all earn over 65k they will get hit and not get an increase for the next 3 years ie into the next electoral period? If true i am well happy but they should ie the TD's get cut a lot more.

YES, this is the third pay cut for TDs, same as for other PS workers.

 

[cork]

Will the deal get the votes to get through?

 

[Purple]

I find it disturbing that people seem to take pleasure in Public Sector employees getting their pay cut.
It is absolutely necessary and has to happen but it’s also unfair and very harsh on those affected.

The problem is that the massive pay increases that were given by Bertie and the boys should never have been given but people adjust their lifestyle accordingly and took on debt that still had to be serviced. The bad guys here aren’t the current government, it’s the last government(s) and the fat-cat union leaders who sold the country down the river during a decade of Social(ist) Partnership.

There are only two countries in the EU that have collective bargaining for Public Servants; Ireland and Greece.
There are 5 countries in the EU where Public Sector workers get paid more than their direct counterparts in the Private Sector; Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

We rank at the bottom of the pile in the OECD for value for money and efficiency in our Health Service. I would be very surprised if we weren’t in the same place for the rest of our Public Services.

The bad guys here are the incompetent management, the previous populist governments and the greedy and self-serving unions that thwart all attempts at real reform for the sake of it because they are ideologically hostile to management because of their stupid bankrupt socialist dogma.

The problems we face are systemic and vast. The solution isn’t to cut wages till input costs balance out waste, it’s to reduce the levels of waste and inefficiency until the wage costs are sustainable. At that stage if wage reductions are required then they must be imposed.

Most people want to work well and do a good job. When the system they work within in structurally inefficient and wasteful it’s very hard not to become demoralised and give up. People are the greatest resource any organisation has. If it doesn’t use them efficiently no amount of money will deliver good services or product.

 

[Deiseblue]

Any Trade Unions overlying premise is to protect & if possible enhance the terms of conditions of it's members .

It is hugely unfair to state that Unions have always objected to reform , the advent of the Social Partnership model being a case in point - the success of which lead in no small part to the advent of the Celtic Tiger , unfortunately all thrown away by the elite cadre of our Banks & Developers aided by the manifestly unethical FF led Government.

A further case in point is the Unions involvement in the original Croke Park Agreement which undoubtedly has delivered major reform.

I do agree that if CPA 2 is voted in then we will be left with a hugely demotivated Public Sector workforce who will I would think operate a work ethic that will simply be to do the strict minimum required of them - indeed a mate of mine in the PS said that the approx. 30 minutes additional daily time required of him will be spent sulking at his desk - disappointing I know but understandable as well !

 

[Purple]

Any Trade Unions overlying premise is to protect & if possible enhance the terms of conditions of it's members .

I agree and due to their greed and bullying through ten years of socialist partnership during which time union leaders usurped the role of the people in the democratic process they have done huge damage to the medium term pay and T&C’s of their members.

It is hugely unfair to state that Unions have always objected to reform , the advent of the Social Partnership model being a case in point - the success of which lead in no small part to the advent of the Celtic Tiger , unfortunately all thrown away by the elite cadre of our Banks & Developers aided by the manifestly unethical FF led Government.

Nonsense; Socialist Partnership added an unsustainable cost burden on the state and has cost this country tens of billions. The Union fat-cats were at the top table with the bankers and developers and their respective pet politicians carving up this country. The most apt image is the last few pages of Animal Farm.

A further case in point is the Unions involvement in the original Croke Park Agreement which undoubtedly has delivered major reform.

“Major” is in the eye of the beholder.

I do agree that if CPA 2 is voted in then we will be left with a hugely demotivated Public Sector workforce who will I would think operate a work ethic that will simply be to do the strict minimum required of them - indeed a mate of mine in the PS said that the approx. 30 minutes additional daily time required of him will be spent sulking at his desk - disappointing I know but understandable as well !

I’m still waiting to hear what the Brethren will suggest instead, other than hot air and waffle.

 

[Firefly]

many people in the private sector have mortgages to pay and are hurting badly too, only dfference is they dont have job scurity or fat pensions to look forward to.

Hi blueband,

Regarding security: this is a very subjective thing. In the aggregate you are probably right, but personally, I would feel very insecure if my future livelihood was totally dependent on one, single employer as many in the public sector, I fear, are.

Regarding pensions: one of the side-effects regarding the unions fixation with avoiding job losses, is that it puts more pressure on the future generation to fund all these pensions. Considering that the pension reserve fund is low, our national debt is massive (and growing) and that the future generation will obviously have to pay for their own public services, then I personally wouldn't be feeling too plum if that's all I had coming to me. I won't go into specifics but we are due a public sector pension ourselves for about 15 years service, but view it as a bonus if it's paid.

 

[Deiseblue]

The Trade Unions were simply doing their job , if you have a difficulty with the terms & conditions negotiated freely with the employers then I can only suggest that your main gripe is surely with those who acquiesced to the terms granted.

Over the course of the last decades the Social partnership model guaranteed industrial peace in exchange for modest wage increases & advantageous tax reforms - I do not recall any bullying taking place , instead we experienced decades of Industrial peace as opposed to the industrial mayhem that prevailed in the years preceding partnership leading to the Celtic Tiger which was thrown away by the lightly regulated free market.

The wage increases granted under the various national wage agreement were indeed modest ( I know I received them ! ) - people's biggest bugbear appears to be with the various benchmarking exercises , it should be remembered however that this was a Government initiative & was not driven by either Trade Union requests or demands.

Management clearly failed appallingly in this regard as the Unions once again agreed to a variety of reforming measures as part of the benchmarking process but management failed to pursue the delivery of such reforms assiduously - it most certainly was not a case of Unions blocking such reform.

One way or the other we are going to be left with a hugely bolshy , disincentivised workforce whose morale will be at an all time low & the quality of our public services is going to plummet alarmingly .

The Unions views on raising the required monies are myriad , I would suggest a good place to start is www.impact.ie under news archives.

 

[Purple]

The Trade Unions were simply doing their job , if you have a difficulty with the terms & conditions negotiated freely with the employers then I can only suggest that your main gripe is surely with those who acquiesced to the terms granted.

Over the course of the last decades the Social partnership model guaranteed industrial peace in exchange for modest wage increases & advantageous tax reforms - I do not recall any bullying taking place , instead we experienced decades of Industrial peace as opposed to the industrial mayhem that prevailed in the years preceding partnership leading to the Celtic Tiger which was thrown away by the lightly regulated free market.

The wage increases granted under the various national wage agreement were indeed modest ( I know I received them ! ) - people's biggest bugbear appears to be with the various benchmarking exercises , it should be remembered however that this was a Government initiative & was not driven by either Trade Union requests or demands.

Management clearly failed appallingly in this regard as the Unions once again agreed to a variety of reforming measures as part of the benchmarking process but management failed to pursue the delivery of such reforms assiduously - it most certainly was not a case of Unions blocking such reform.

One way or the other we are going to be left with a hugely bolshy , disincentivised workforce whose morale will be at an all time low & the quality of our public services is going to plummet alarmingly .

The Unions views on raising the required monies are myriad , I would suggest a good place to start is www.impact.ie under news archives.

We've been around the block enough times to know that we won't agree on this issue.
I am of the opinion that those who were the drivers in the Socialist Partnership golden circle are responsible for their actions and that their actions have had negative consequences far beyond the vested interest groups that those people represented.

I also believe that those people looked for short term gains which were unsustainable and are responsible for the medium to long term impact of their actions on those they represented.

If a child eats too many sweets and doesn’t brush then their parents are responsible for their rotten teeth.
If an adult does the same thing then they are responsible for their own teeth.
Your hypothesis seems to be that the Union Fat-Cats are like children, not responsible for the consequences of their actions. My view is that they wanted to sit at the table with the grown-up’s and so have to be held to account as if they were grown-ups, even if their understanding of economics and simplistic world view indicates otherwise.