Agreed - we are not going to agree
My opinion remains unchanged , Unions primarily exist to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of it's members .
The Unions were pragmatic enough to enter into social partnership which in my opinion led to the advent of the Celtic Tiger which was then thwon away.
Actually as I read the above it strikes me you are right we are simply retreading old ground - I have no doubt we will debate the issue again , perhaps around the time the union members cast their votes ?
The Unions were pragmatic enough to enter into social partnership which in my opinion led to the advent of the Celtic Tiger which was then thwon away.
The Trade Unions were simply doing their job
I often wonder about that. In the grand scheme of things, what's wrong with a few strikes or are well all gone soft?Over the course of the last decades the Social partnership model guaranteed industrial peace
Considering that management themselves are in unions is it any wonder they didn't implement reform? Why should they when they are so protected?Management clearly failed appallingly
One way or the other we are going to be left with a hugely bolshy , disincentivised workforce whose morale will be at an all time low & the quality of our public services is going to plummet alarmingly .
My opinion is that unicorns exist and live in the forests of Eastern Russia but, just like you, I have to evidence to support my opinion
As a pragmatic Trade Unionist living in the real world I must tell you that unicorns do not exist - as a group they decided not to avail of Trade Union membership & were ultimately wiped out by a running dogs of capitalism pack
I have better news for you though on the existence of the Easter Bunny & Santa Claus _ _ _
Public servants are indeed getting hit again but it is still true that any private sector workers would jump at the chance of getting an equivalent job in the public sector.
As a pragmatic Trade Unionist living in the real world
Well said.
I didn’t think it was possible to fit two oxymoron’s into the same sentence
I know; if only he'd just admit it!You guys are the same really!
Higher paid so-called "Front Line" state employees are all against the deal.The Irish Federation of University Teachers with 2000 members & the TUI with 15000 members are both to recommend that the terms of the proposed deal be rejected.
A massive +1.This kind of generalisation really grinds my gears in the whole public/private debate - I know people who have turned down some of the few public sector jobs (in lower/middle management) on offer in recent times, because the package on offer - lower pay than they could command in private sector, but better terms (working hours, holidays) - couldn't justify the loss of earnings for comparative employment in the private sector.
Similarly, I know of a competition to recruit staff for ICT roles in the last year or so, where they were unable to fill all positions because of the gap between the market rates, and the public sector payscales for those roles.
For recent & current entrants, myself included, there is a healthy skepticism about the value of our supposed "gold-plated" pensions - I can't afford to assume that it'll be there waiting for me in 35 years, but I am paying just over 10% of my salary in there already (if you include the pension levy) without any say in the matter, so I suppose I just have to hope for the best... I took a job which involved about 15-20% drop in gross pay, and a bigger drop in net pay if you factor in the pension levy/contribution that I would have opted out of if I could. The incremental scale and what I now consider an overestimation of the value of my pension, and job security, were critical to my decision. I now have to have a long hard look at my position - ironically my private sector employability has improved as a result of my public sector employment.
The mantra of not being able to afford to continuing to pay "excessive" wages to PS staff is all well and good, but the reality is that if you pay peanuts you will only ever get monkeys. For example:
The young, mobile, highly educated/qualified, recent entrants to the PS will head back to the private sector ASAP, as the arithmetic will no longer add up to be in there - longer hours for less pay and less flexible working, and as I already mentioned, less value being placed on the promise of pension. With increments being messed around with, and advancement by way of promotion non-existent (redeployment being the order of the day to fill vacant roles, with scant regard for how suitable the candidate is for the role), the brightest and best simply cannot and will not stay.
This will reduce headcount, but not by getting rid of the deadwood - the people who are "lifers"; the ones everyone has heard stories about, who occasionally sit at their desk in between tea breaks, and are largely left alone because it's easier to do so than to waste others' time trying to cajole normal levels of productivity out of them. These people are inevitably the last ones to leave; they know they're onto a good thing (though they'd never admit it of course), so they're going nowhere until either a package is offered to entice them out, or they reach retirement. I see nothing in this deal to put skates under these people - they are a small but costly minority of the PS workforce, everyone knows they exist, and they should be the ones weeded out.
This for me is the real failure of the process, by both sides involved; they took yet more relatively easy decisions that will just cause more problems further down the line, rather than agreeing on real public sector reform.
A massive +1.
By the way, the 'lifers' you mentioned, I'm surrounded by them. Men and women in their 50's and 60's sitting at the top of the pay scale, mortgages paid off, children grown up. Doing the absolute bare minimum, because a 1 or 2 in their so called 'annual review' doesn't matter anyway, and management letting it happen. Happy to collect their pay cheque every friday.
These people are the real winners from CP2.
Meanwhile the likes of myself has been in the Civil Service for 10+ years, have got consistently high annual review grades, and is still a Clerical Officer. It is soul destroying to see my colleagues happy to float along, not doing much at all, while I work hard for less money and no prospects of career advancement whatsoever.
I did a head count the other day. We have 40 people from Service Officer up to Assistant Principal in this office.
If I was running my own business, I would employ 7 of them. At a stretch.
If the CPSU thinks I'm going out on strike to protect the lifers, they have another thing coming. I've got a mortgage to pay and a daughter to feed.
I could, but where would that get me? It wouldn't change a thing.What that tells us it that the problem is overstaffing and under performance and what’s happening is that the Government and Unions are cutting your pay so that your inputs can cover your salary and that of the person beside you who does nothing. Your pay is being cut because you are subsidising wasters. How do you not blow a fuse with them every day?
A massive +1.
By the way, the 'lifers' you mentioned, I'm surrounded by them. Men and women in their 50's and 60's sitting at the top of the pay scale, mortgages paid off, children grown up. Doing the absolute bare minimum, because a 1 or 2 in their so called 'annual review' doesn't matter anyway, and management letting it happen. Happy to collect their pay cheque every friday.
These people are the real winners from CP2.
Meanwhile the likes of myself has been in the Civil Service for 10+ years, have got consistently high annual review grades, and is still a Clerical Officer. It is soul destroying to see my colleagues happy to float along, not doing much at all, while I work hard for less money and no prospects of career advancement whatsoever.
I did a head count the other day. We have 40 people from Service Officer up to Assistant Principal in this office.
If I was running my own business, I would employ 7 of them. At a stretch.
If the CPSU thinks I'm going out on strike to protect the lifers, they have another thing coming. I've got a mortgage to pay and a daughter to feed.
The point is that they are not doing their jobs to the bare minimum even to the very low standards that the unions have the bar set at. Because of this their pay is subsidised by their colleagues. The rest of your post is constructed on the false premise that they are in fact doing their job properly.I do sympathise with your older colleagues ( lifers seems a touch pejorative)- they have already suffered 2 payouts & are heading into a third as despite your assertion to the contrary they will not remain unaffected by CPA2 , they continue to do their job even if it is the bare minimum & to be honest it's hard to blame them given the circumstances for basically doing nothing more than their contract demands.
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