Credit Union Withdrawal from elderly woman's account made by in-law

[Cheated]

What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal it appears to be a forged signature.
Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a witness to the signature before releasing the money

 

[Slim]

It depends on when the consent was presented. In recent years, medical evidence or witnessed document is usually required.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Have you notified the Garda?

Brendan

 

[Threadser]

Have you spoken to the in-law or her spouse who presumably is a sibling requesting clarification as to why this is being done? This could be how the nursing home fees are being paid. If you are not getting satisfactory information then contact the gardai.

 

[Cheated]

Thank you our mother passed away while in the nursing home The consent was presented 3 yrs ago I am the administrator we cannot find a will the sister in- law phoned on the day our mother was buried and informed me that she and my brother will not be talking to us again
The credit union claim the ,money was withdrawn to pay the nursing home but I check the nursing home is paid through fair deal program
She eventually emptied the credit union completely of €8600.00 in 12 months and €6400.00from the Ban Account using the debit card and also let out 2 rooms in our mothers home while she was in the home and we were unaware she collected €8000.00 cash for the let
We contacted the free legal advise bureau and were told due to our mother's death there is very little that can be done it would cost more to go to court for justice. Also they advised the police would not help when the person has passed away

 

[Threadser]

Sorry for your loss and the difficult situation in which you find yourself. It is a stressful time without having to deal with this additional upset. If your mother owned her own home then it is unlikely that the fair deal scheme would have covered the full amount of fees as she would have been required to pay 80% of her income and an additional amount equivalent to 21% of the value of her home (total) to cover the cost of fees for the first 3 years. If there was rental income from the house then there would have been an obligation to pay 80% of that to the nursing home too as it would be counted as additional income for your mother. Were you involved when your mother was moving into full time care or was the entire matter sorted by your brother and sister in law? Unfortunately many families fall out over situations like this as accusations fly over some siblings not contributing, doing their fair share of the care, etc etc . I hope you get this sorted but it is not hopeful as communication seems to have broken down completely. Who paid the funeral expenses and how were you made aware of being an administrator of the estate if the will cannot be found?

 

[Cheated]

Hi I arranged the fair deal and had our mothers house valued recently paid the revenue €40000.00 for the fair deal with the sale of the house I paid for the funeral €6800.00 part life insurance and the remainder cash The problem our brother and wife have cleaned out our mothers accounts unaware to the family as they claimed they were looking after her finical interests they also tried to claim the death benefit insurance and signed the death cert we were unable to get any info from the Bank and CU as thet nomenicated the sister in-law as the point of contact there is also a medical bill outstanding which they said was paid untrue as administratot I am trying to reconsile my mothers finical accounts they haver got a solicitor and any further contact is to be true him we need advise what to do

 

[Threadser]

The whole situation sounds very complicated. When you arranged the fair deal did you arrange how the payment of 80% of her income was to be made and did anyone have power of attourney? I presume probate has been granted if the house sale has gone through? The solicitor who handled the probate might advise how to proceed. If there is no will then your sibling will be entitled to their share of the house sale. Perhaps you could subtract the amount taken from your mother's accounts from his portion of the proceeds of the sale but you obviously you need proper legal advice.

 

[Cheated]

I applied to be administrator through the court of the estate as nobody else would take it on
Our mother had a widows pension plus our late father pension the short fall from Fair was paid by DD monthly
Our solicitor tells me under the secession act our brother is entitled to a full share of the property and there is no point trying to follow the money our sister in law withdrew any amount less than €20000.00 is not worth it but we are sickened by their conduct and feel they should return the money to the family However they were very clever they told the people that rented the 2 rooms not to talk to us The outstanding medical bill will talk to us as we are not the nominated person I told I will pay the bill the bank will not talk to us same story again We have reached the bottom and now we have to pay them filling the sale of the house Sick

 

[Threadser]

Sometimes you have to draw a line under things and move on for the sake of your own sanity. If you highlight the renting of the rooms in the house then you could be liable for extra tax to be taken out of the estate. You brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance if there is no will. It is a pity that you didn't arrange to be a co-signature on your mother's accounts but hindsight is a great thing

 

[Feemar5]

I wonder how the rent was paid - I suspect cash. If it was a bank transfer to either of them Revenue could follow it . My late mother used to say when she heard of something like this " they won't have much luck for it". Move on with your own life and try and forget about it.

 

[noproblem]

Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.

 

[Cheated]

I wonder how the rent was paid - I suspect cash. If it was a bank transfer to either of them Revenue could follow it . My late mother used to say when she heard of something like this " they won't have much luck for it". Move on with your own life and try and forget about it.

Thank you

 

[Cheated]

Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.

Thank you it appears the advice most people give it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts they did not leave enough to pay for her funeral

Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.

Your correct his wife wants their share

 

[Bronte]

Thank you it appears the advice most people give it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts they did not leave enough to pay for her funeral

Your correct his wife wants their share

Your posts are not fully clear. There is enough money to pay the funeral expenses as there is the mother's home. So it is incorrect to look at it as there was not enough money left to pay for the funeral. I was in the same situation as executor and there was no money so I just paid it myself and recouped it after the house was sold.

Your brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance. You do not know if your late mother wished her son and DIL to have access to the money in the CU. Maybe they did use it to pay something towards the nursing home as I'm aware there are extra costs that the governement does not pay for. Were they living in the house before your mother went into the home. My thinking on them renting out rooms is that at least someone was looking after the house and costs associated with it so that when your mother died the property was in a saleable condition.

 

[Bronte]

. Perhaps you could subtract the amount taken from your mother's accounts from his portion of the proceeds of the sale but you obviously you need proper legal advice.

You can't be doing that as the OP has no proof of anything underhand. The solicitor has already advised that it's not worth purshing the 20K so the OP needs to forget about it. And the OP should just divide the estate after costs (medical bill, estate agent, solicitor)

 

[twofor1]

it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts

Are you sure they got away with €21,000 from your mothers accounts ?

You say your mother signed consent 3 years ago so presumably your mother was in a nursing home for 3 years or thereabouts.
It is easy to see how €21,000 might have been legitimately spent over this time.

Fair Deal does not cover activity charges which are typically €3,000 annually, in some homes substantially more.

Your mother would have had additional charges such as hairdressing, prescription charges, possibly charges for outings, samples couriered to labs, hip protectors, the list of possibilities is endless.

Did your mother need physiotherapy, chiropody, dental etc, none of which are covered under Fair Deal.

One of my relations in a nursing home still has VHI costing €2,000 annually.

Another smoked, that cost €70 weekly. (€3,500 annually)

One needed a specialist chair that cost €5,000.

Your mother would have needed shoes, clothes, toiletries etc.

Then there is house insurance, maintenance, utilities, property tax.

Is it possible that the cash in the bank and credit union together with the rent could have been legitimately spent and this is why your brother and sister in law are aggrieved enough to fall out with family and employ a solicitor ?

 

[Cheated]

Thank you

Cash to our brother he said he paid in
on utilities €800/month

What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal it appears to be a forged signature.
Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a witness to the signature before releasing the money

You Re correct in you assumptions the credit union send me a copy of the letter giving permission for the withdrawal it was hand written by the in law and my mother’s signature did not appears to be hers as her hands were always shakin also there was second letter with permission sighted by a totally different signature they told the credit union the money was to pay nursing home fee the first amount was withdrawn in the first 6 week of her going into the home and 3 months the remainder all the money in the bank was withdraw over 2 yrs on a debit card They even took out €50.00 on the day we buried our mother all advise appears to let it go

 

[Bronte]

If your mother's hands were shaking then how can you tell if it was not a genuine signature.

Did Fair Deal cover all nursing home care for your mother - 100%. Were there any extras that had to be paid?

 

[Cheated]

Are you sure they got away with €21,000 from your mothers accounts ?

You say your mother signed consent 3 years ago so presumably your mother was in a nursing home for 3 years or thereabouts.
It is easy to see how €21,000 might have been legitimately spent over this time.

Fair Deal does not cover activity charges which are typically €3,000 annually, in some homes substantially more.

Your mother would have had additional charges such as hairdressing, prescription charges, possibly charges for outings, samples couriered to labs, hip protectors, the list of possibilities is endless.

Did your mother need physiotherapy, chiropody, dental etc, none of which are covered under Fair Deal.

One of my relations smoked, that cost €70 weekly. (€3,500 annually)

Another needed a specialist chair that cost €5,000.

Your mother would have needed shoes, clothes, toiletries etc.

Then there is house insurance, maintenance, utilities, property tax.

Is it possible that the cash in the bank and credit union together with the rent could have been legitimately spent and this is why your brother and sister in law are aggrieved enough to fall out with family and employ a solicitor ?

Hi Thank you she had a medical card it paid medication I have statements from the nursing home there was only a weekly charge for to have her hair cut etc she did get a special chair €500.00 subsidised by the medical card She also had private health care that paid for when a doctor visit was required I asked them for receipts and was told they did not keep I ask for bank card to check for a statement and was told the bank does not send statements and they cut up the debit card I asked for the credit union book and was told they don’t know where it is Following these questions they said they would not be talking to me again

What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal it appears to be a forged signature.
Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a witness to the signature before releasing the money

Your posts are not fully clear. There is enough money to pay the funeral expenses as there is the mother's home. So it is incorrect to look at it as there was not enough money left to pay for the funeral. I was in the same situation as executor and there was no money so I just paid it myself and recouped it after the house was sold.

Your brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance. You do not know if your late mother wished her son and DIL to have access to the money in the CU. Maybe they did use it to pay something towards the nursing home as I'm aware there are extra costs that the governement does not pay for. Were they living in the house before your mother went into the home. My thinking on them renting out rooms is that at least someone was looking after the house and costs associated with it so that when your mother died the property was in a saleable condition.

Thank you I did pay for the funeral my self and waiting on the return from the sale of the house they did pay some small personnel charges to the home there was no cost to keep the house when it was vacant except house insurance but when they let out the 2 rooms they claimed the rental paid for the utilities and there was nothing over
It looks like it will cost to much to get the money back now