Z
z103
Guest
cameras used properly, on such places as the M50, would increase revenue.
Crackdown on Prov License Drivers - Will it stick?
- Thread starter Sn@kebite
- Start date
cameras used properly, on such places as the M50, would increase revenue.
Very naive post altogether.
Just as a matter of interest - are there any statistics to prove the high number of road deaths have any link whatsoever to provisional license holders?
I have to say I am nervous about this crack down - as a driver on a provisional license - but anyone who thinks they have a 'right' to drive on a provisional license has a basic lack of understanding of how licencing works. You are provided with a prov lic to learn to drive. No one is supposed to spend years doing so. Ideally you learn to drive - do your test - sorted. The inherent issue is that getting a test is not a simple soloution - I looked up the waiting time in my local test center - 25 weeks. Thats almost half a year. This clamp down will only be practical when everyone has a decent chance at passing the test in a reasonable time. Then it can be said that it is the responsibility of the learner drive to comply with the law. However if you need to able to drive on a daily basis it is not acceptable to have to wait months for a test date.
Also I heard on the radio - don't know how true it is - that learner drivers will not be allowed to drive anything larger than a 1L engine. That is going to mean the car dealers have a field day - having asked around the learner drivers I know none of us have a 1L - albeit mine is only a 1.1!
I have to say I am nervous about this crack down - as a driver on a provisional license - but anyone who thinks they have a 'right' to drive on a provisional license has a basic lack of understanding of how licencing works. You are provided with a prov lic to learn to drive. No one is supposed to spend years doing so. Ideally you learn to drive - do your test - sorted. The inherent issue is that getting a test is not a simple soloution - I looked up the waiting time in my local test center - 25 weeks. Thats almost half a year. This clamp down will only be practical when everyone has a decent chance at passing the test in a reasonable time. Then it can be said that it is the responsibility of the learner drive to comply with the law. However if you need to able to drive on a daily basis it is not acceptable to have to wait months for a test date.
Also I heard on the radio - don't know how true it is - that learner drivers will not be allowed to drive anything larger than a 1L engine. That is going to mean the car dealers have a field day - having asked around the learner drivers I know none of us have a 1L - albeit mine is only a 1.1!
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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Someone said:
This quote shows how confused the thinking is. I would second Square's question? Is there any evidence that people driving on provisional licenses cause more accidents?
We know that young people cause more accidents. But do young people on provisional licenses cause more accidents than young people with full driving licenses? I doubt it, but I am open to being shown the statistics on this.
I would guess that older drivers on provisional licenses have fewer accidents than young drivers on full licenses.
Possession of a full license doesn't stop people speeding and drinking and crashing lights and chatting on their phones while driving.
Why not give everyone to be given a license automatically? Redeploy all the testers onto the roads to monitor our driving. Ban drivers for 6 months after 3 penalty points. Ban them for 5 years for a further 3 points.
Brendan
This quote shows how confused the thinking is. I would second Square's question? Is there any evidence that people driving on provisional licenses cause more accidents?
We know that young people cause more accidents. But do young people on provisional licenses cause more accidents than young people with full driving licenses? I doubt it, but I am open to being shown the statistics on this.
I would guess that older drivers on provisional licenses have fewer accidents than young drivers on full licenses.
Possession of a full license doesn't stop people speeding and drinking and crashing lights and chatting on their phones while driving.
Why not give everyone to be given a license automatically? Redeploy all the testers onto the roads to monitor our driving. Ban drivers for 6 months after 3 penalty points. Ban them for 5 years for a further 3 points.
Brendan
redchariot
Registered User
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I think not. We are the laughing stock of Europe the way our system is set up. It is about time we get our act together and get it right.
Do you seriously think that a system which allows a person, who is untested or who has failed a driving test, to drive on their own is suitable? It is an absolute disgrace in my opinion.
I know there are plenty of good experienced provisonal licence drivers out there, but there is no distinction between the good and bad. At least when you have passed the test you have shown a certain level of comeptency to drive.
I have to say I do think there are few sides to the arguement here:
- It is ridiculous that someone who fails a test (regardless of how badly they drove or how dangerous they were on the road) can finish their test and get back into their car and drive home. AND continue to drive their car until they can get a re-test (or choose to re-apply which I understand they can wait a year and then have their "up to" 35 week wait).
- Having to wait 10 to 35 weeks for a re-test is madness, especially is someone fails on a minor point - they should have a way to slot these drivers in within 2 weeks once they have had a chance to improve on their problem areas
- Not impressed with the suggestions of repeating the test the "next day" as some posters seem to advocate...if a driver fails for some serious errors, they should have to wait a suitable period of time (such as 3 months for a serious failure) and prove they have done lessons to assist them in improving their driving.
- Another contributory factor is that so many younger drivers are buying their own cars rather than driving their parents....who wants mum or dad in the passenger seat of "their" car. There was no way my parents would let me drive alone until I had my licence....obviously their cars I was driving!
- The biggest problem is that in Ireland we have various "rules" that generally aren't enforced (such as driving with a fully licenced driver when on provisional) so many people ignore them and get incensed when they are actually enforced. For example; loads of people donlt know how to drive on motorways....my OH saw a family having a picnic on the hard shoulder one day....in any other EU country the cops would be there in minutes!
- Public transport - need I say more, generally a shambles!
So overall, I can understand why provisional drivers feel they have no choice but to drive alone at times but IMHO I don't think they should as it can put themselves & others at risk.
- It is ridiculous that someone who fails a test (regardless of how badly they drove or how dangerous they were on the road) can finish their test and get back into their car and drive home. AND continue to drive their car until they can get a re-test (or choose to re-apply which I understand they can wait a year and then have their "up to" 35 week wait).
- Having to wait 10 to 35 weeks for a re-test is madness, especially is someone fails on a minor point - they should have a way to slot these drivers in within 2 weeks once they have had a chance to improve on their problem areas
- Not impressed with the suggestions of repeating the test the "next day" as some posters seem to advocate...if a driver fails for some serious errors, they should have to wait a suitable period of time (such as 3 months for a serious failure) and prove they have done lessons to assist them in improving their driving.
- Another contributory factor is that so many younger drivers are buying their own cars rather than driving their parents....who wants mum or dad in the passenger seat of "their" car. There was no way my parents would let me drive alone until I had my licence....obviously their cars I was driving!
- The biggest problem is that in Ireland we have various "rules" that generally aren't enforced (such as driving with a fully licenced driver when on provisional) so many people ignore them and get incensed when they are actually enforced. For example; loads of people donlt know how to drive on motorways....my OH saw a family having a picnic on the hard shoulder one day....in any other EU country the cops would be there in minutes!
- Public transport - need I say more, generally a shambles!
So overall, I can understand why provisional drivers feel they have no choice but to drive alone at times but IMHO I don't think they should as it can put themselves & others at risk.
I'm a provisional driver waiting on a retest since April, was supposed to have been March but was postponed by a few weeks, sent me some stupid letter with no real reason(and todays figures from [broken link removed]) there is a 43 week waiting list with a 51.1% pass rate. Reason I failed my first test was "I was a bit too quick (but never broke the speed limit)" going up a narrow road with cars parked on both sides and try and get up the road moving in and out trying get up the road and let other cars through also. If I wasn't quick enough I would have been failed for not making progress.
I'm now waiting 6 months for another test and still no sign of a date, going by those figures I've another few months to go. Also a friend of my OH told me, her best friend while in a coffee shop before her test overheard 2 testers saying who they were going to fail that day, before these people even sat into a car! She went up to the and told them she was doing her test and if she failed she would go to the papers and radio with what she heard ...she passed!
The whole problem is the waiting list, and how many people driving on full licences never did a driving test either due to getting a licence before there was a test or during the last amnesty are causing accidents ?
I'm now waiting 6 months for another test and still no sign of a date, going by those figures I've another few months to go. Also a friend of my OH told me, her best friend while in a coffee shop before her test overheard 2 testers saying who they were going to fail that day, before these people even sat into a car! She went up to the and told them she was doing her test and if she failed she would go to the papers and radio with what she heard ...she passed!
The whole problem is the waiting list, and how many people driving on full licences never did a driving test either due to getting a licence before there was a test or during the last amnesty are causing accidents ?
contemporary
Registered User
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long waiting times mean more over time for the testers, the more they fail the longer the list, the more the over time.... 43 weeks wait is a disgrace, i always got the feeling them boys worked to a quota, unoffically of course...
For the most part these posts make distressing and saddening reading. As a response to the terrible annual fatality figures, general chaos around driving standards and "the driving test" in Ireland the powers-that-be are endeavouring to sort it out. They suggest (a) that everyone driving on the roads should know how to do so safely - the competency test - and (b) that deterrents be put in place - speed cameras, for example - to those breaking the laws of the land by exceeding speed limits.
Instead of enthusiasm these attempts are cried down. On the basis that they will not achieve greater safety on the roads for everyone? Not at all! They're cried down on the basis of 'the authorities are fools' 'the authorities/driving instructors/police/everyone else but me are corrupt' 'show me the evidence' or 'it's all a money-making racket'. Or most importantly "They can't do that! It will mean I have to submit to the laws of the land".
Perhaps if folks could - just for once - think about the hundreds of (usually younger!!!) drivers and passengers who die in fatal road traffic accidents every year, and the statistics which show these to be rising year-on-year, helpful legislation and systems could be put in place to make the roads and those using them, safer.
Instead of enthusiasm these attempts are cried down. On the basis that they will not achieve greater safety on the roads for everyone? Not at all! They're cried down on the basis of 'the authorities are fools' 'the authorities/driving instructors/police/everyone else but me are corrupt' 'show me the evidence' or 'it's all a money-making racket'. Or most importantly "They can't do that! It will mean I have to submit to the laws of the land".
Perhaps if folks could - just for once - think about the hundreds of (usually younger!!!) drivers and passengers who die in fatal road traffic accidents every year, and the statistics which show these to be rising year-on-year, helpful legislation and systems could be put in place to make the roads and those using them, safer.
I completely agree that everyone should be made to have mandatory lessons with a qualified instructor but taking 400,000 people off the road is ridiculous. Of course a 18 year old with no experience should not be allowed on the road but what about the perfectly capable older people who have had lessons who are caught up the the government's inability to really tackle waiting times for tests. As already mentioned, it is in the examiner's interests to have long waiting times and low pass rates, I know for fact that despite an extra examiner and tests all day each Saturday at the test centre near me, the waiting time has not gone down and the pass rate has decreased! The test itself needs looking at and if someone fails on relatively minor points they should be allowed to retake the test sooner and only be assessed on what they failed on, like the NCT! Personally I think if someone has proper lessons and shown in those they have competancy to drive that should be taken into account as part of the test too, it shouldn't be based on a 35 minute exercise when you will be nervous and pretty much at the whim of the examiner's mood that day.
Can anyone of us with full licences honestly say they never once drove unaccompanied while on a provisional, I doubt it.
The government need to tackle the bigger issues such as drink driving, people on mobile phones, ( I saw one woman happily chatting away on her phone at a dangerous junction in full view of the guards sitting in a car in front of me yesterday), speeding and foreign nationals who may have passed a test in their home country but have no idea how to drive or the meaning of road signs, rather than just swooping on one group.
Can anyone of us with full licences honestly say they never once drove unaccompanied while on a provisional, I doubt it.
The government need to tackle the bigger issues such as drink driving, people on mobile phones, ( I saw one woman happily chatting away on her phone at a dangerous junction in full view of the guards sitting in a car in front of me yesterday), speeding and foreign nationals who may have passed a test in their home country but have no idea how to drive or the meaning of road signs, rather than just swooping on one group.
The situation with the licences that has arisen in this country is ridiculous, I agree that it needs to be sorted out, but how can the RSA expect to suddenly change what is now in effect an ingrained cultural habit within 48 hours? So many people depend on their cars to live their lives and the test waiting times are such joke, that this measure should be phased in. For example from X date it should apply to new licencees and then by X date the law will be applied in full.
I also would say it is a sure bet that in the next few weeks we will be hearing the stories emerging from test centres of the deluge of applications they have got and that test waiting times will get worse.
This measure is needed, the situation of learners going straight onto the roads has to stop, but the method is ill thought out needs to be better planned, to allow people (the 450K) to sort things out, apply for and get tests. Otherwise it will be still be ignored by all and sundry.
I also would say it is a sure bet that in the next few weeks we will be hearing the stories emerging from test centres of the deluge of applications they have got and that test waiting times will get worse.
This measure is needed, the situation of learners going straight onto the roads has to stop, but the method is ill thought out needs to be better planned, to allow people (the 450K) to sort things out, apply for and get tests. Otherwise it will be still be ignored by all and sundry.
[broken link removed]
I'm sure there are plenty of other statistics available, which would explain why the insurance industry view learner drivers as the highest risk in terms of accidents & why the RSA are targetting this group. It stands to reason that inexperienced drivers or those who already have failed the test are a major cause of accidents.
I can.
I took lessons before my test so any time I drove on my provisional I had a driving instructor beside me. I passed my test and only then did I buy my first car.
I think the new rules will change the driving culture in Ireland for the better if they are enforced. I have no sympathy for those who have been driving for years on a provisional without bothering to do the test and I know some of them including one of my siblings. I did drive when younger with a provisonal and no driver with me and other times without a provisonal and also on occasion without insurance. I was wrong to drive in these circumstances, the only thing I can say about it was that was the culture in Ireland then. (about 20 years ago). My OH got one of those no test licences. In his 20's he agrees himself that he was a dangerous driver. He actually got rid of his car and motorbike as he was a danger to himself and others. The statistics prove that young male drivers are the worst but they can't make laws just for them. The law has to apply to everybody. In a years time when the road death statistics come down we'll all be glad. Just the same as we will see the health benefits of the smoking ban. They also said that was not going to work! Any of you who don't have the full licence would be well advised to apply to every driving test centre in Ireland (or the north/uk etc if possible) this morning for a test before everybody else. I have a feeling the applications are going to go through the roof.
Fair play to you then, I'd guess you would be the exception than the rule. Though I drove alone I didn't do that until I had had plenty of lessons and practice and my instructor told me he felt he couldn't take any more money off me for lessons when my driving was fine, as I said earlier I definitely don't agree that people should be able to drive alone without having gone through formal training for a minimum number of hours.
sinbadsailor
Registered User
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Firstly, I have to say that I hope this sticks and we start to move forward as a country in the whole driving area, next stop should be the complete rebuild of the whole driver testing area, starting from our schools.
But back on point, while I agree it is not the fault of the thousands of drivers who have been let carry on thier daily lives on provisional licences, moving out of expensive and built up areas etc and therefore become completely dependant on their car as a mode of transport. The whole lack of a viable public transport system has a major part in this.
But in order to make a much needed and proper change in this area, it will hit certain road users. That what change is! It is unavoidable. I just think that drivers on multiple provisionals should really be asking themselves if a) they are doing everything in their power to obtain a full licence b) they understand that this needs to be done and be a better person and agree that it benefits the many, albeit hitting the few in the process.
If thats the case then fair play to you, the system is letting you down. But if you a driver you just keeps getting provisional after provisional because you can, and have no interest in obtaining the full licence, well then this is your wake up call, you do not have a right to drive, it is a privelage and this move is designed to get you trained or get you off the road.
As for whether provisional drivers are more involved in accidents, well the fact that you are not fully qualified to drive on the roads until you pass the driver test, you will always be classed as inexperienced, no matter how long you have been driving and will be classed as such.
Lets just hope that the govt follows through and in turn, commits to making the changes required in the other areas of road safety to justifiy the discomfort and relative pain for those caught in the net this move throws out.
But back on point, while I agree it is not the fault of the thousands of drivers who have been let carry on thier daily lives on provisional licences, moving out of expensive and built up areas etc and therefore become completely dependant on their car as a mode of transport. The whole lack of a viable public transport system has a major part in this.
But in order to make a much needed and proper change in this area, it will hit certain road users. That what change is! It is unavoidable. I just think that drivers on multiple provisionals should really be asking themselves if a) they are doing everything in their power to obtain a full licence b) they understand that this needs to be done and be a better person and agree that it benefits the many, albeit hitting the few in the process.
If thats the case then fair play to you, the system is letting you down. But if you a driver you just keeps getting provisional after provisional because you can, and have no interest in obtaining the full licence, well then this is your wake up call, you do not have a right to drive, it is a privelage and this move is designed to get you trained or get you off the road.
As for whether provisional drivers are more involved in accidents, well the fact that you are not fully qualified to drive on the roads until you pass the driver test, you will always be classed as inexperienced, no matter how long you have been driving and will be classed as such.
Lets just hope that the govt follows through and in turn, commits to making the changes required in the other areas of road safety to justifiy the discomfort and relative pain for those caught in the net this move throws out.
i waited 40 something weeks for a test arrived and my breaklight was gone had to reapply now waiting 23 weeks. So I have done what the system required but now according to them from tuesday can't drive. Like many ideas from central government it is a good idea that will probably fail as it does not have the necessary backup.They should have reduced the waiting times for tests then introduced this. There will now be an influx of applications which will further increase waiting times.
Think this idea is going to be a non-starter. Gardai won't prosecute if the insurance companies are prepared to pay out and the insurance companies will pay out if there is no prosecution pending!
In my job I do see a large number of young inexperienced drivers involved in accidents - not always the cause! I would have thought that mandatory lessons (10 for example) would have been the way to proceed whilst the testing centres get their act together. That way no-one is being put off the road and very young drivers are getting some tuition from someone qualified.
In my job I do see a large number of young inexperienced drivers involved in accidents - not always the cause! I would have thought that mandatory lessons (10 for example) would have been the way to proceed whilst the testing centres get their act together. That way no-one is being put off the road and very young drivers are getting some tuition from someone qualified.
I am a fully licenced driver and have been for the past 10 years but I think this decision is outrageous. And I'm not exaggerating. I agree that reform is needed but this is not the way.
THe majority of road traffic accidents are due to driver fatigue and drink driving. However the govt are not rushing to reduce the legal alcohol level.
The suggestions of some posters that the prov drivers should simply take public transport or apply for their test is too simplistic. Not everybody lives in areas served by public transport. Are they supposed to quit their jobs? Or perhaps hitch-hike ?
And if they do apply for their test they will have to wait at best, 18 weeks (this is Noel Dempsey's target for 'virtually on demand tests' - speaking on Morning Ireland this morning). 4 and a half months is not on demand.
I can't see this being enforced... the situation is a shambles but this will make it worse.
THe majority of road traffic accidents are due to driver fatigue and drink driving. However the govt are not rushing to reduce the legal alcohol level.
The suggestions of some posters that the prov drivers should simply take public transport or apply for their test is too simplistic. Not everybody lives in areas served by public transport. Are they supposed to quit their jobs? Or perhaps hitch-hike ?
And if they do apply for their test they will have to wait at best, 18 weeks (this is Noel Dempsey's target for 'virtually on demand tests' - speaking on Morning Ireland this morning). 4 and a half months is not on demand.
I can't see this being enforced... the situation is a shambles but this will make it worse.