Cowen goes back to school!
- Thread starter PaddyBloggit
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This is up there for the "Most toys out of the pram childish thread award".
The man is studying a course. What of it? If he was seen walking to the shop to buy the paper Knuttell would accuse him of breathing.
Knuttell, you want politicians to enact a law which will se them face criminal charges for errors made?
Can you lend me your time machine that gives you a perfect insight in to the future?
Or just link your post from 1998 - 2007ish showing us unlearned folk how you would have done things differently.
The power of hindsight is strong in this one.
Do you want him working or kissing babies and doing soundbites?
It is obvious why we don't get economic & industrial specialists in to government now. Its a blatant case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. To top that off some want them criminally liable for "mistakes" as well as having no social life and having your past scrutinised and made public. Where does one sign up for this?
If a politician dares tell the electorate the honest truth in a blunt fashion they are voted out at the first oppurtunity only to have a yes man and story teller installed to renege on promises.
Knuttell why havent you contacted Fergus O'Rourke yet?
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=160768
The man is studying a course. What of it? If he was seen walking to the shop to buy the paper Knuttell would accuse him of breathing.
Knuttell, you want politicians to enact a law which will se them face criminal charges for errors made?
Can you lend me your time machine that gives you a perfect insight in to the future?
Or just link your post from 1998 - 2007ish showing us unlearned folk how you would have done things differently.
The power of hindsight is strong in this one.
Do you want him working or kissing babies and doing soundbites?
It is obvious why we don't get economic & industrial specialists in to government now. Its a blatant case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. To top that off some want them criminally liable for "mistakes" as well as having no social life and having your past scrutinised and made public. Where does one sign up for this?
If a politician dares tell the electorate the honest truth in a blunt fashion they are voted out at the first oppurtunity only to have a yes man and story teller installed to renege on promises.
Knuttell why havent you contacted Fergus O'Rourke yet?
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=160768
PaddyBloggit
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Perhaps he should have studied the course first before he took the country to rack and ruin.
Cowen is entitled to do his course but it's a bit ironic to see what the course is and doubly ironic to see how much it is costing.
The man appears to think that he'll carry on regardless and that he'll pick up some high powered job somewhere.
The man contributed to the mess the country is in while he was Minister for Finance and in his role as Taoiseach.
(Re. the comment 'Most toys out of the pram childish thread award' - em ... why? My reasons for posting a new thread are as valid as anybody else who does the same. I posted a link which I thought was important enough to link to. I don't think it was childish to do so. No need to belittle my reasons for doing that.)
Cowen is entitled to do his course but it's a bit ironic to see what the course is and doubly ironic to see how much it is costing.
The man appears to think that he'll carry on regardless and that he'll pick up some high powered job somewhere.
The man contributed to the mess the country is in while he was Minister for Finance and in his role as Taoiseach.
(Re. the comment 'Most toys out of the pram childish thread award' - em ... why? My reasons for posting a new thread are as valid as anybody else who does the same. I posted a link which I thought was important enough to link to. I don't think it was childish to do so. No need to belittle my reasons for doing that.)
So we should have a minimum educational criteria for those in office? As per my previous post, why would a fully qualified economic expert train and educate themselves and then enter politics where they cannot tell the truth or they'll be voted out, possibly facing criminal charges and at the mercy of the press and public for, in this case, taking another course.
What has the cost of it got to do with anything? If it was a free course he'd be lambsted for being a freeloader.
Should he be made stand on a post with a sign that says " I made mistakes" or just become a recluse altogether? Will that give you your pound of flesh?
Did he tell you that or is this speculation? Your first sentance states he should have done this course first and then taken up subsequent positions; he is now studying the course, maybe with a view to taking up another position, and here you are again having a go. Make up your mind.
contributed does not mean fully responsible. There were mistakes made by the then government, the Public sector ( which is by and large still "in office") and the people. I am no fan of his, bertie, fingleton et al by a long shot but these no sensical threads are full of this type of hang'em all arguments.
PaddyBloggit
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If threads like these are nonsensical to you then, perhaps, you shouldn't bother contributing to them. We are, after all, entitled to express our opinions.
If we put monkeys into office we'll get monkey politics. Yes, of course, there should be minimum educational criteria .... even those who go for apprenticeships need to pass an aptitude test. We need competent people running our country - it doesn't matter what party they represent.
Nothing at all if you've got the dosh to pay for it. And he has, courtesy of a handsome payoff/pension.
It would be a great start.
I have made up my mind. Cowen et al should have done the course first. He is, however, doing it now. I would reasonably speculate that he is hoping to get a high powered job from it. And, yes, I am having a go.
Yes, I was wrong, I should have said 'responsible' - he was Minister for Finance and he was Taoiseach ... the buck did stop with him. So you are correct, it's not 'contributed' it's 'responsible'.
only having a laugh with you...
shammy feen
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mandelbrot
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There are quite a few Fianna Failers posting on this thread methinks but you just know they will deny it ad nauseum (who would blame em)
Bad Knuttell and Shammy for having an opinion contrary to mandelbrots and wishing that someone would finally be held responsible for the mess the Country is in... didn't you know its the People what ruined the Country through expecting reasonable oversight and governance in exchange for their vote.
mandelbrot
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Mwaahahaha you are indeed having a larf now my friend - I have got ZERO interest in politics, I'm disillusioned with the whole show TBH. I just think that story was total hack journalism (but I bet someone was happy to get an expenses paid trip to California to get in Cowen's face... maybe there should be an exposé about THAT!!)
My -2 was actually ironic; the point being that Shammy Feen didn't even really bother to express an opinion... I originally had a -1, but then I said I couldn't really give a -1 because I couldn't disagree with Shammy without also disagreeing with you...
But then I thought no-one would understand why it was a -2, so I had to explain it... and now you've ruined it by getting up on your high horse about it!
Oh and I have no problem saying how I voted in the last 2 elections - I gave my first 3 votes to Fine Gael and Labour, both times... and then I filled up the rest of the ballot paper in no particular order, making sure that I didn't give Sinn Fein or the Loony left candidate a vote.
shammy feen
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mwaahahaha you are indeed having a larf now my friend - i have got zero interest in politics, i'm disillusioned with the whole show tbh. I just think that story was total hack journalism (but i bet someone was happy to get an expenses paid trip to california to get in cowen's face... Maybe there should be an exposé about that!!)
my -2 was actually ironic; the point being that shammy feen didn't even really bother to express an opinion... I originally had a -1, but then i said i couldn't really give a -1 because i couldn't disagree with shammy without also disagreeing with you...
But then i thought no-one would understand why it was a -2, so i had to explain it... And now you've ruined it by getting up on your high horse about it!
oh and i have no problem saying how i voted in the last 2 elections - i gave my first 3 votes to fine gael and labour, both times... And then i filled up the rest of the ballot paper in no particular order, making sure that i didn't give sinn fein or the loony left candidate a vote.
-1
shammy feen
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Just to give a verbal opinion...I know Brian Cowen is a private citizen and I know hes just spending his "own money" but please remember he has no problem with accepting the pension he is absolutely legally due in spite of the fact that he is one of the prime architects of the ruination of the Irish economy which has resulted in an erosion of Irish sovereignty. Do you remember why all the Fianna Failers "retired" just before the last election because of the personal financial benefits of doing so?
I had to emigrate 2 years ago with my wife and 2 young kids to Australia to find work so please forgive me if my goat gets up when I see people like Cowen spending their legally entitled pension money. I get the feeling hes not as bad to the core as Bertie and Charlie were and I think he has a private contrition for the way things went down in 2007/2008, no doubt deceived by bankers and civil service mandarins, but could you really accept such a huge pension from the irish people in clear concience after doing such an awful job?
The 20 years in Mountjoy thing was a bit tongue in cheek to be honest but some contrition from those responsible would be nice, but its just not in the political makeup of Ireland to be accountable for anything, and that will never change. The people will always be taken for a ride and will never raise a fuss in public.
Thats the Irish way, our resilience is both our downfall and our triumph...we will put up with almost anything but on the otherhand always rebound from adversity quickly.
Anyway Im off to throw another shrimp on the barbie...
Shammy
I had to emigrate 2 years ago with my wife and 2 young kids to Australia to find work so please forgive me if my goat gets up when I see people like Cowen spending their legally entitled pension money. I get the feeling hes not as bad to the core as Bertie and Charlie were and I think he has a private contrition for the way things went down in 2007/2008, no doubt deceived by bankers and civil service mandarins, but could you really accept such a huge pension from the irish people in clear concience after doing such an awful job?
The 20 years in Mountjoy thing was a bit tongue in cheek to be honest but some contrition from those responsible would be nice, but its just not in the political makeup of Ireland to be accountable for anything, and that will never change. The people will always be taken for a ride and will never raise a fuss in public.
Thats the Irish way, our resilience is both our downfall and our triumph...we will put up with almost anything but on the otherhand always rebound from adversity quickly.
Anyway Im off to throw another shrimp on the barbie...
Shammy
mandelbrot
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That's more like it, now you're involved!
It strikes me as funny you've given me a -1 on my last post, because you then go on to express an opinion quite like my own.
You acknowledge that Cowen wasn't making decisions in some sort of a vacuum; there were plenty of people bending his ear, and in the end he made what many people regard as a wrong decision (bearing in mind that nobody can say for certain what would have happened if that guarantee hadn't been put in place).
I too would like contrition and accountability, but to a certain extent he has been held accountable; his political career appears to be over. To me the pension issue is a different argument - and I find it very hard to believe that many individuals would turn down a pension to which they are legally entitled, even if they don't have a clear conscience. If I felt I had worked hard in a job for 20 years, even if I made a complete stones of something at the end, if I was entitled to a pension then I'd take it.
But none of that alters the fact that the article was total hack journalism - Cowen wasn't advertising that he was over there, they followed him over there in order to print a story to wind people up, and they succeeded. To me, it wasn't newsworthy, I don't care what Brian Cowen does now that he's not an elected public representative anymore.
And just a final mention on accountability; it's now endemic in our culture at all levels that personal accountability / responsibility is only something that applies only to other people:
A child falls and injures themselves while at school or even trespassing on someone else's land - sue the school / landowner (instead of telling them to be more careful, or clip the child around the ear for trespassing).
Get caught drink driving - try to find a technicality to get out of it on.
The list is endless, and perhaps might be a suitable subject for another thread elsewhere, but my point is as a society we're all as bad as each other - some will say that it's because there's no accountability from the top down, but I'm not so sure.
shammy feen
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Mandlebrot
I gave you a -1 because you gave me a -1.
Frankly I have a childish and mischievous sense of humour even though I have just turned 40.
It was just a funny response to your previous post. No offense.
Shammy (+2)
I gave you a -1 because you gave me a -1.
Frankly I have a childish and mischievous sense of humour even though I have just turned 40.
It was just a funny response to your previous post. No offense.
Shammy (+2)
What you are not seeing is that other contributors are not defending Cowen's actions, they are disagreeing with the simplistic view that one elected person can be be held responsible for the state of the country and vilified for life for their government's political decisions.
IMHO the main causes of poor political decision making are the same today as they were 5 years ago.
How is it simplistic to expect that someone takes responsibility for the utter mess that this Country is in?
How is it simplistic to expect that someone be held accountable for bankrupting the State?
Its that sort of half witted nonsense that allows the likes of Clowen to retire on pension of €130k a year while the rest of us foot the bill for his incompetence through property taxes water charges...
ah look I am throwing my hat at this,any one with any gumption has probably left this Country a long time ago,all that's left are the bleating sheeple,we got the leaders we deserved,enjoy their legacy.
The state of the country is as a result of the policy decisions of elected and unelected officials over very many years. It is as a result of a media stoked property boom. It is as a result of our membership of the EU. It is as a result of the impact of common eurozone interest rates. And all that is just for a start.
Who put him there? Property taxes and water charges should have been implemented long ago. Don't get me wrong, the amount of the pension is ridiculous, as are the levels of pay for many state paid jobs.
I agree that we got the leaders that we deserved but I disagree that the country is left with bleating sheeple. It has plenty of whingers looking for someone to blame or wanting to put all the problems down to the bank guarantee or saying that 'we didn't cause this mess'. A generation ago most people would have dusted themselves off and worked ridiculously hard to get out of this mess. Instead we now have lots of people who moan as taxpayers subsidise their poor decision making during the boom and in many cases their continued poor decision making.