could this be ireland in the 2030 s

[Remix]

from the document - that has countless media crossreferences to arrest / prosecutions

"In 2003, three English-language schools were under investigation for posing as fronts for trafficking women from Eastern Europe to Ireland. Gardai believed the schools offered women legal permits to study in Ireland but then sent them to work as lap dancers and in prostitution across the country...
.

Not just a problem with sections of Ireland's underclass. Something's rotten in higher levels too.

Let's not forget that Irelands largest bank helped with financial support to open a large strip/lap dancing club in Dublin.

I wonder if the business plan included expanding the chain throughout Ireland?

The "business" failed and the bank incurred a big loss - so this particularly seedy line of irish moneylending appeared to be closed off.

 

[daltonr]

Reading McWilliams article, it sounds to me like he read "The Millionaire Mind" and "The Millionaire Next Door"

There's nothing new or exciting about the idea that immigrants prosper within a generation or two, often by setting up their own businesses. The reasons for it are described in the books I mentioned, both of which are worth reading.

It's also worth mentioning that the immigrants who work hardest to provide for their families often encourage their children into jobs like Medicine and Law, in an attempt to give them "a better life" than they had themselves.

And, the children of those Doctor's and Lawyers, grow up always being confortable and the country needs a new generation of immigrants to start businesses and create wealth.

One thing is certain: emigration is a Darwinian process that self selects the brightest, most enthusiastic of any tribe and as a result is always beneficial to the host country and almost always to the migrant.

Ah David, you're too kind.

-Rd

 

[Ancutza]

Sunrock, I sense a certain scathingness to the Polish community who have chosen to work in Ireland. At best its a bit dismissive and at worst its offensive. Sure they're (the girls) only here to be hookers anyway.

As for Russian women trying to latch-on to Irish guys in order to better themselves well isn't the human condition one which always seeks self-betterment? So what's inherently wrong with that? It's the Irish guys who are the clowns if they allow themselves get involved with a girl whose motives are less than above board.

By the way I'm married to an eastern european girl (Romanian) and I'd face instant divorce if I announced that we were going back to live in sunny Ireland. Plus I had to beg and gnash my teeth for 18 months to get a date with her in the first place!!! Not everyone is desperate to bail out of the 'home' country or to do whatever is necessary to get on.

Why don't you consider the Poles to be the hard-working folk they so obviously are and get on with it. If they pay their taxes in Ireland what's the problem?

 

[Persius]

There was a documentry on UTV about prostitution in NI recently. I think it's fair to say the "market" is pretty much the same north or south of the border. A PSNI spokesman said that most prostitutes actually were British, and often students, who came over to Ireland as "touring escorts" to make quick money (supply and demand in Irl vs GB). He said they found no element of coercian in this.

From experience in Britian and Continental Europe, most prostitutes who are promised work as waitresses, then trafficed into the country and forced to work as prostitutes come from countries that do not have any automatic right to enter the EU. Russia and the Ukraine are obvious examples, but there are currently a large number of women being trafficed from Moldova, Albania and Romania. I believe in southern Europe, alot of the trafficed women are from Africa.

In countries where prostitution is legal (Holland) or semi-legal (Germany) it is generally accepted amongst law enforcement that many of the east europeans are working as prostitutes of their own free will. It is a way for them to make a lot of money in a short timeframe and then return home. Law enforcement focus their efforts on releasing women forced to be prostitutes.

I would think it is fair to say, based on european experience that most prostitutes in Ireland from EU states are working of their own free will. That's not to say that trafficing doesn't happen here as well. Considering the money to be made (compare rates with continental europe), theres a lot of incentive to traffic, but also the added difficulty of getting onto the Island.

 

[ClubMan]

Do you really think it's a good idea to generalise like this about people of a particular nationality based on presumably limited experiences like these?

 

[sunrock]

Sunrock, I sense a certain scathingness to the Polish community who have chosen to work in Ireland. At best its a bit dismissive and at worst its offensive. Sure they're (the girls) only here to be hookers anyway.

No problem with poles or any other immigrants ancutza.
I only mentioned them as they are the largest immigrant group from eastern europe in what was a discussion on the prospects of immigrants in ireland.I did observe when I was in central EUROPE IN THE EARLY 90s that hungary and the czeck republic seemed more positive about building up their own countries,whereas the poles were waiting for something to happen and were not as active in rebuilding their own country.They were more interested in working abroad.
Other posters have zeroed in on immigrant prostitutes and whether these are voluntary or coerced workers.I SUSPECT fewer polish girls are in this game than other east european countries immigrants....anyway i don`t have a moral position on this....people make decisions about ways of earning money.
No doubt as other posters have shown immigrants have a lot of drive and work hard to be a success. However their children are not going to be as motivated as they are basically irish having been born and brought up here...the big lure of working hard for 2 or 3 years and returning to buy a big house in their home country doesn`t exist for them.
The chinese are different again.....asians in the u.s. go the education route...and so we will probably see many chinese professionals in the future.
However if we have hard times in ireland,i think most immigrants would be quick to leave,... much as we might like to think they come here because they like us or our ways.....

 

[daltonr]

whereas the poles were waiting for something to happen and were not as active in rebuilding their own country

<sarcasm>
You're right, they'd never fit in here. The Irish would never allow ourselves to go with a begging bowl to Europe. When things were bad here in the 80's and early 90's, we built the country from scratch by the sweat of our brow without shoes on our feet or an This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language in our pants. And we didn't take one penny from Europe to do it.

That's what these new Eastern European countries don't understand isn't it? Just because there are wealthy countries in Europe, like us and poor countries like them, it's really not fair for us to have to take in their emigrants, or send them money to help build their country.

I mean, did anyone help take in our emigrants during the 80's, or help us out with structural funding? No they did not, and we were too proud a nation to accept help like that even it it was offered.
We did it all ourselves by saving our pennies, and getting 5p refunds on Coke bottles, and eating Corn Flakes with warm water instead of milk. And we were glad to have it.
</sarcasm>

-Rd

 

[sunrock]

Very sarcastic!
I WAS JUST stating a fact....a higher proportion of polish people have emigrated than for example hungarians or czecks.
I don`t have any problem with poles coming to work in ireland.....and as you have mentioned irish people emigrated in the 80s.
It however is a sad reflection on polands politicians and policy makers,just as it was irish politicians fault for having high emigration from ireland in the 80s.
I MEAN the ireland of the 80s desperately needed to build up its infrastructure and services ....it would have meant taxing people more in order to get everyone working and building up the country.....but no the selfishness of the halves decided that emigration was a safety valve!
And spare me the platitudes that our politicians trotted out to hide the harsh reality...that we were only a small island..and it was a great adventure.
Poland is a fine country with a lot of good arable land, and the people are very friendly.but their political leaders have left them down badly.

 

[daltonr]

Don't worry sunrock, I'm just poking fun at the people who have a problem with us taking in those from Eastern Europe, or with Ireland making a Net contribution to Europe.

You're wrong about one things though....

the ireland of the 80s desperately needed to build up its infrastructure and services ....it would have meant taxing people more in order to get everyone working and building up the country.....but no the selfishness of the halves decided that emigration was a safety valve!

By the mid to late 80's it was already too late. The damage was done in the 70's. By the 80's taxes were already high, and Ireland was borrowing just to keep the country ticking over. Investing large sums of money in infrastructure was almost out of the question.

The recovery of the Irish economy was only possible because of a perfect storm of circumstances.

Very tough steps were taken to cut spending, perhaps too tough in retrospect.
Some intelligent (and somewhat lucky) tactics attracted multinationals in particular Hardware and Software companies right at the start of an enormous global IT Boom.
Europe coughed up a couple of vanloads of cash to help build infrastructure that almost certainly would not have gotten built otherwise.

Most of the Haves that you mentioned didn't care too much what the tax rates were in Ireland. The real Have's in this world pay very little tax, that's why they're Haves.

-Rd