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Guest109
Guest
[broken link removed]
i think this guy has hit it on the button,time will tell
i think this guy has hit it on the button,time will tell
[P]Would tend to agree with the thoughts, however I think there could be alot of mobility within the EU. How many young poles would up sticks to Germany if it started to boom there? (BTW the article is over 3yrs old). [/P][P]A garage/workshop has been taken over on my street by a group of poles, they work until 8-9 at night and are open 7 days a week (much to the annoyance of the immediate neighbours!). Hopefully they'll sort out my exhaust at the weekend.[/P][P]Much more interested to hear Michael o Muircheartaigh try and get his tounge around some of the names that will be lining out in 10-15 years time in croker![/P]
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phoenix_n
Guest
From my personal experience one of our Polish colleagues has opened a coffee shop across the road and is now in the process of opening up a restaurant. All this while doing his 'day' job. My jibes of 'didn't know you went part-time' in reference to his constant absence don't seem to translate well as he never finds it amusing.
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Guest109
Guest
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=78460&pt=n
also just seen today a polish restuarant opening in my home town,they sure are getting into the swing of it here
also just seen today a polish restuarant opening in my home town,they sure are getting into the swing of it here
Surely shoe care shops are a bit specialist this day and age?
Well I think hard working people tend to thrive everywhere, especially when there's a strong economy generating plenty of customers with money to spend. The opportunity is there for everyone. Is the suggestion that the Irish don't work hard enough? From what I see on our roads there are huge numbers of Irish people going to work early and leaving late.
Or are we a little miffed to realise that some of our immigrants are actually entrepreneurs? Not everyone ups sticks and travels a thousand miles just to flip hamburgers.
Or are we a little miffed to realise that some of our immigrants are actually entrepreneurs? Not everyone ups sticks and travels a thousand miles just to flip hamburgers.
bogwarrior
Registered User
- Messages
- 46
In societies with large immigrant populations (i.e. US, Australia) research shows that the children of immigrants tend to do better in school than kids who's parents are from the host society. After 1 generation though, things even themselves out - the children of the high-achieving 'first generation' do just about the same as everyone else.
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Wilkes
Guest
As an avid D.McW. reader I sometimes wonder why he seems to bypass or overlook three large sections of Irish society when he quite correctly fingers our whinging. I don't rate myself a whinger btw but if you care to look deeper isn't there a lot more to see?
What about the huge number of Irish famillies who scrape by on the AIW or less and resort to money lenders to make ends meet. I mean Credit Unions, Credit Cards etc. These famillies are not borrowing for plasma screens and would never consider wasting money on decking. Underneath is a very disadvantaged group including disabled, home carers and elderly on subsistence income. I know its a smaller group than yesteryear but it is still very large.
In between these and the "head on" group that so facinates David are the barely coping middle income earners and I don't mean the inner urban type that he sees in his day but those stuck four hours or longer every day in the transport mess. This has a massive knock on cost to famillies and to children. I don't mean those caught up in the conspicuous consumption cycle but just ordinary Irish famillies trying to get along without a lot of spare capacity either in income or time.
This leads us to the question I think that's still not adaquately measured. What is the impact on our children who see this "head on" machine, the young who spend a lot less time with their parents because of the two income need, and the older who see ahead a work / lifestyle that seems like it bleeds yound adults especially if you want to buy a roof over your head. We have growing pyschological problems with children some of it emerging in binge drinking and in suicide. How do we reconcile this growing trend with the success of our economy?
Its true that emigrants who come from far less economically advanced societies than our own love the Irish opportunity but give them ten years here and children when they too are faced with the issues of raising a family and the results will be the same. It is inevitable that an entrepreneur class will emerge and it will be fantastic but innate business talent will be limited to the small minority so blessed. Most immigrant famillies regardless of work ethic will find themselves in the same meat grinder unless something radical is done about public transport and affordable living accomodation.
What about the huge number of Irish famillies who scrape by on the AIW or less and resort to money lenders to make ends meet. I mean Credit Unions, Credit Cards etc. These famillies are not borrowing for plasma screens and would never consider wasting money on decking. Underneath is a very disadvantaged group including disabled, home carers and elderly on subsistence income. I know its a smaller group than yesteryear but it is still very large.
In between these and the "head on" group that so facinates David are the barely coping middle income earners and I don't mean the inner urban type that he sees in his day but those stuck four hours or longer every day in the transport mess. This has a massive knock on cost to famillies and to children. I don't mean those caught up in the conspicuous consumption cycle but just ordinary Irish famillies trying to get along without a lot of spare capacity either in income or time.
This leads us to the question I think that's still not adaquately measured. What is the impact on our children who see this "head on" machine, the young who spend a lot less time with their parents because of the two income need, and the older who see ahead a work / lifestyle that seems like it bleeds yound adults especially if you want to buy a roof over your head. We have growing pyschological problems with children some of it emerging in binge drinking and in suicide. How do we reconcile this growing trend with the success of our economy?
Its true that emigrants who come from far less economically advanced societies than our own love the Irish opportunity but give them ten years here and children when they too are faced with the issues of raising a family and the results will be the same. It is inevitable that an entrepreneur class will emerge and it will be fantastic but innate business talent will be limited to the small minority so blessed. Most immigrant famillies regardless of work ethic will find themselves in the same meat grinder unless something radical is done about public transport and affordable living accomodation.
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sunrock
Guest
Immigrants always have certain advantages over native workers when they come to ireland.
Firstly by definition they have more energy and are younger and more eager to work hard to make money....the lazy or older tend to stay, or return very soon back to poland.
They are not embarrased to do menial work beneath their qualifications or to work much harder or even to do shady work in sex industry or whatever ,than they would be prepared to do in poland....of course it helps when you are in a place where you are not known by everyone.
The money here ,even minimum wage is big money in poland...i`m sure irish workers would be lured if someone offered them 100e /hr for example.
A big recruitment drive by irish authorities encouraged these workers to come here....citing a desperate need ,big wages and lazy native workers.
I was in central europe in 1992 , and saw how the czecks and hungarians wer working hard to build up their cities..however in poland the people seemed not to be doing this and only wanted instant wealth and foreign currency.
Its no surprise that a greater number of poles than czecks or hungarians have emigrated.
Anyway the poles are like any emigrant group,willing to work hard for the first 5 to 10 years ..return to poland .. buy a house/business and semi retire.
They cannot become established here like in australia or u.s. because the price of property here is too high...what pole who has saved 100,000e here is going to take out a mortgage here when with that money he could have a property portfolio in poland,
And secondly the ease and cost of returning is so easy, and of course the costs and wages will harmonise.
Which brings me to the thread ..ireland in the 30s....there will of course be a certain amount of east europeans still coming ..probably from further east ....however the ones left over from the last 10years and their children will be down the social order...they cannot afford property here so are renting or getting rent allowance and in a less than booming time will be a discriminated group especially so as they compete for the better jobs......however they can take comfort from the fact that they are doing better than the asylum seekers children or immigrants born "on the way/boat" to ireland and poor immigrants from africa_these form a new underclass, who rely mostly on welfare not withstanding the few success stories such as musicians and sportsmen including the first 1 million e /year gaelic footballer.
There has been a big slump in proprty prices ..it seems nobody wanted houses in the 20s .. all remembering the burning received back in the teens ....much blaming and hand wringing as politicians jockeyed for public approval and all promised a return to the good old days back about 20 or was it 30 years ago
But property prices are starting to rise again and soon everyone is working harder building ever bigger houses.....such is life
Firstly by definition they have more energy and are younger and more eager to work hard to make money....the lazy or older tend to stay, or return very soon back to poland.
They are not embarrased to do menial work beneath their qualifications or to work much harder or even to do shady work in sex industry or whatever ,than they would be prepared to do in poland....of course it helps when you are in a place where you are not known by everyone.
The money here ,even minimum wage is big money in poland...i`m sure irish workers would be lured if someone offered them 100e /hr for example.
A big recruitment drive by irish authorities encouraged these workers to come here....citing a desperate need ,big wages and lazy native workers.
I was in central europe in 1992 , and saw how the czecks and hungarians wer working hard to build up their cities..however in poland the people seemed not to be doing this and only wanted instant wealth and foreign currency.
Its no surprise that a greater number of poles than czecks or hungarians have emigrated.
Anyway the poles are like any emigrant group,willing to work hard for the first 5 to 10 years ..return to poland .. buy a house/business and semi retire.
They cannot become established here like in australia or u.s. because the price of property here is too high...what pole who has saved 100,000e here is going to take out a mortgage here when with that money he could have a property portfolio in poland,
And secondly the ease and cost of returning is so easy, and of course the costs and wages will harmonise.
Which brings me to the thread ..ireland in the 30s....there will of course be a certain amount of east europeans still coming ..probably from further east ....however the ones left over from the last 10years and their children will be down the social order...they cannot afford property here so are renting or getting rent allowance and in a less than booming time will be a discriminated group especially so as they compete for the better jobs......however they can take comfort from the fact that they are doing better than the asylum seekers children or immigrants born "on the way/boat" to ireland and poor immigrants from africa_these form a new underclass, who rely mostly on welfare not withstanding the few success stories such as musicians and sportsmen including the first 1 million e /year gaelic footballer.
There has been a big slump in proprty prices ..it seems nobody wanted houses in the 20s .. all remembering the burning received back in the teens ....much blaming and hand wringing as politicians jockeyed for public approval and all promised a return to the good old days back about 20 or was it 30 years ago
But property prices are starting to rise again and soon everyone is working harder building ever bigger houses.....such is life
Come on - I am sure that the poor misfortunate who are "trafficked" here by criminals to work in our Celtic Pussy sex industry did not do this by choice - more so by criminal subversion
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z107
Guest
I just read the article - well skimmed through it anyway (I have work to do)
It's nonsense.
By virtue of very fact that these people have decided to travel to another country to work, surely means that they are predisposed to want to work
It's nonsense.
By virtue of very fact that these people have decided to travel to another country to work, surely means that they are predisposed to want to work
How many cases of sex industry human trafficking have been proven in Ireland?
Oh Clubman again - ho-hum
how this one, my moderation buddy? - enough Ireland references for you?
[broken link removed]
ClubMan, why do you insist on taking up contrarian positions based on semantics?
I doubt that so many Eastern European women dreamed of being lap-dancers in Dublin when they were little girls - while they may not have been trafficked here, circumstances may have forced them to resort to lap-dancing to make ends meet. The less lucky of them will have burly "minders" forcing them to participate in prostitution against their will, after being lured to the country by unsavoury characters with promises of a new life etc, etc.
In fairness, we've all seen the PrimeTime documentaries, the anecdotal evidence is everywhere, circumstantial evidence even more so (are you saying that every woman working in the sex industry is doing so by choice?)..... why do you chose to argue a point based on the lack of courtroom convictions?
I don't consider it mere semantics to challenge what seem to be inaccurate insinuations - in this case the ones above about the incidence of human trafficking for the sex industry in Ireland. The document posted above is very vague about problems in this area:
I seem to recall a recent interview with a Garda spokesperson in which he confirmed that they have never dealt with any cases of alleged human trafficking for the sex industry to date.
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polo9n
Guest
here comes the paddy attitude again..no case of human trafficking? come on, for real? obviously living in cuculand and catching people speedinig on m50 @60km at his best
Actually Clubman your comments are vague and contrarian to the point of being antagonistic to site users - meanwhile you protect behind your moderator "status". Like all account people choose to believ what they want - if you want to believe that women willingly prostitute themselves - so be it. BTW I fully expect this post to be deleted regardless of probity.
from the document - that has countless media crossreferences to arrest / prosecutions
"In 2003, three English-language schools were under investigation for posing as fronts for trafficking women from Eastern Europe to Ireland. Gardai believed the schools offered women legal permits to study in Ireland but then sent them to work as lap dancers and in prostitution across the country.[1] In June 2003, more than 100 people—96 of them women—were held in raids on 10 lap-dancing clubs across the country. Of those arrested, 71 were accused of working illegally, and 10, mostly Eastern European women, were charged under the Aliens Act. The raids were part of Operation Quest, a crackdown on illegal immigration and trafficking.[2] In August 2003, Gardai broke up a criminal gang that forced South American women to work as sex slaves. The women’s passports had been confiscated by the gang when the women arrived in Dublin. The gang is believed to have brought at least 30 women into Ireland over a 4-month period; most were in their early 20s. Some of the women appeared to believe that they would be working as domestic servants. They were kept in apartments in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick, and Waterford. These charges were the first brought for trafficking for prostitution against anyone in Ireland.[3]
In January 2004, Gardai arrested two pimps accused of trafficking, raping, and assaulting foreign women in prostitution, mostly from Africa and Eastern Europe. The women were forced to work in brothels in Kilkenny and Carlow. Detectives believe the pimps are running a chain of brothels around the country.[4] In March 2004, a man was arrested for producing child pornography, using four children under the age of 10. It was the first time someone in Ireland had been arrested for producing, not just distributing, child pornography.[5] In December 2004, a Portuguese man was jailed for 9 months for smuggling two Brazilian women into Ireland.
I would. Derryman put the word "trafficked" in quotes - I assume to infer that he meant the colloquial use of the word, rather than it's strict legal definition.
Given that criminals would have no use of trafficking by its legal definition for women from the accession states - these women are entitled to travel to Ireland after all - I think its fair to say derryman was referring to general attempts to lure or coerce these women to move to Ireland to participate in the sex industry. Strictly speaking, there's nothing illegal about promising a girl several hundred euro for a nights work so I'm not surprised this particular crime of human trafficking for the sex trade might not have popped up on the Gardai's radar.
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sunrock
Guest
Its amazing what angles of my admitedly speculative post ,that people zero in on, and the subsequent posts that follow on.
I was refering to guys with university education from eastern europe ,working as a labourer on a building site ,for example.In my opinion,that is no surprise and no one has a divine right to a job that meets their qualifications.
Of course eastern european girls come here voluntarily , and may also be highly educated or not as the case may be.....they usually find work in shops ,hotels,nannys.restarants, cleaners.....like everyone else they are constantly trying to better themselves and if they can make more money in a lap dance club or even prostitution ,some will decide to make some money this way. For example a hundred euros for 30 minutes work is tempting for a girl on a low paid job,who mightn`t have the highest morals to begin with. After all aren`t many russian women trying to marry irish men to have a better life?
I`ve no doubt some girls come to this country to work in the sex industry in brothels and have "bosses" who organise everything. Its a grey area...many of the girls may be from outside the E.U. and basically its a business.It works beacause there are punters,the girls make their wages and the bosses make their profits.
I was refering to guys with university education from eastern europe ,working as a labourer on a building site ,for example.In my opinion,that is no surprise and no one has a divine right to a job that meets their qualifications.
Of course eastern european girls come here voluntarily , and may also be highly educated or not as the case may be.....they usually find work in shops ,hotels,nannys.restarants, cleaners.....like everyone else they are constantly trying to better themselves and if they can make more money in a lap dance club or even prostitution ,some will decide to make some money this way. For example a hundred euros for 30 minutes work is tempting for a girl on a low paid job,who mightn`t have the highest morals to begin with. After all aren`t many russian women trying to marry irish men to have a better life?
I`ve no doubt some girls come to this country to work in the sex industry in brothels and have "bosses" who organise everything. Its a grey area...many of the girls may be from outside the E.U. and basically its a business.It works beacause there are punters,the girls make their wages and the bosses make their profits.
I have not been antagonistic to anybody here and am in no way "hiding behind" my moderator status (sorry "status") whatever that means...